Could Trump do anything to make you stop supporting him?

[ZNP]

Are you drawing from the same polls that said that Trump won the election in 2020?
It seems like it.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2023/12/my-latest-us-polling-and-what-it-means-on-ukraine/

This is your standard right track / wrong track poll.

Generally those who say we are on the wrong track are more motivated to come out and vote than those who say we are on the right track. Those who say neither are the least motivated to vote. So although only 67% say wrong track, there are 12% who say nothing. Which is why I round this off to about 70:30

Also, 32% of Biden voters say they are worse off now than in 2020, that is very bad for Biden.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I have a policy of not trying to reason with unreasonable people. If you think Biden is authoritarian or fascist then you have no grasp of what those words actually mean.

I had a paragraph and I deleted it. Instead I have a simple question, do you see Trump as a fascist? If you see him as a fascist and nothing Biden is doing as fascism, you have a blind spot.

Just because something is asserted does not make it true and I always weigh information on the following criteria:

1. Is it plausible.
2. Is there sufficient evidence to back up the claim.
3. is the evidence from a reliable source.

Sorry, but that's a nice sophisticated way of saying if you don't see what I see you're wrong. If your reliable source isn't my reliable source, I'm wrong. Everyone today can find "facts" that suit their POV. Again, blind spot.

I also have a policy which many of you here don't, and that is to treat everyone the same and hold everyone to the same standards. ZNP along with many of you apply the following standards:

If it is bad about Biden, Democrats, "liberals" or any other outgroup then it is treated as absolute truth no matter how extreme, how odious the claim or how flimsy the evidence. If it is bad about Trump or any other right wing hero then it's treated as automatically false no matter how strong the evidence. It's hypocrisy and double standards in the extreme.

I'm going to start with "with all due respect" again. You have been here for a very short time. Secondly, CC is a very small part of my life. Third, I live in a place surrounded by the old school Dems and they are jumping ship. Dems have become so radical that old moderate Dems are leaving. And like Bill Maher, who I'm beginning to agree with more and more, said "I didn't leave my party, they left me"!! That's what I am hearing from Dem friends. If you don't see the radical shift that Dems have made, then you are looking with closed eyes.

I'm a conservative Orthodox Jew. I care about family values and trying to enact principles consistent with the values G-d has enshrined in the Torah. There are "liberal" politicians where I'm from that I'll never vote for, but that does not mean I go around calling them murderers or sexual deviants... unless it's actually true and well proven.

You've mentioned that twice now. Other than abortion I don't know what you're talking about. Other than that, anyone who supports drag queens reading to, performing for, or having involvement with underage children I would consider sexual deviants. Unless you mean something else that I don't know about.

If you do not believe in truth, do not give people the benefit of the doubt or show mercy then G-d will not show you mercy either. This is not my opinion this is his own words. Leviticus 19:18 says to love your neighbour (lit. fellow Israelite). I would not want someone to slander me, spread gossip or defame me just because they didn't like me, my politics or my religious values therefore I do not do it to others.

Yes, I know what it says, I don't disagree.

It's also a blatant violation of the ninth commandment about false witness because if what you're saying turns out to be false, you are now a liar. Whether you knew it was a lie or not is irrelevant, you still participated in spreading the poison which is why G-d forbids gossiping. This is a G-d given commandment and principle many of you who claim to love him have lost.

Well that's a judgement call on your part. If you can show me where I have slandered a person or spread gossip you feel free to show me. But that knife cuts both ways and holds as true for you as it does for me. Correct?

In addition this is what you said:

My answer was people also supported Hitler, Pol Pot and Mussolini... some of the worst people who ever lived. Just because people support someone doesn't mean anything. How is this out of left field? There are lots of leaders in the world who, in my opinion or by irrefutable statistical fact, were terrible at their jobs that still had high approval. Sometimes charisma really does make a difference.

But Trump wasn't terrible at his job. Did you mean to compare him to Hilter, Pol Pot etc?

Trump is at 47% and Biden is at 43... I wouldn't be bragging were I either of them. Just because Trump is very popular in your personal circle does not mean it's the same everywhere else.

Ummm, Bidens own supporters are trying to replace him. They can't believe Trump is where he is in the polls.Why do you think Newsome went to FOX news to debate De Santis? There's blood in the water, and they know it.

I also never said democrats or liberals don't do conspiracy theories... they absolutely do and I hate it just as much from them.

In the age of information that is at our fingertips you would think that things would be clearer. It's the opposite. People don't believe actual news. Which can be clearly seen in what happened in Israel, and is still happening. There are people here that do not believe anything the news reported,and that is across all news channels. They believe these videos were faked. You can read the threads here about it to prove it.

I work in the entertainment business and those of us not in that bubble saw Trump's win coming a mile away in 2016.

Good for you,cause no one on either side here saw it coming. If you were a betting person,you'd be a millionaire right now.The country was stunned.

But all the people in the entertainment business refused to see it because no one in their sphere liked him or could imagine voting for the guy. That's why they were so amazed at his victory. You have to get out of said bubble and talk to people.

Yes it's funny how these "celebs" wanted to get on Trumps show, wanted invites to Mar a Lago, have pictures with him as the greatest guy ever. Until the day he came down the escalator. A lot of sycophants who change with the wind. Had Trump run as a Dem he'd have been treated like king of the world.

 

[ZNP]

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2023/12/my-latest-us-polling-and-what-it-means-on-ukraine/

This is your standard right track / wrong track poll.

Generally those who say we are on the wrong track are more motivated to come out and vote than those who say we are on the right track. Those who say neither are the least motivated to vote. So although only 67% say wrong track, there are 12% who say nothing. Which is why I round this off to about 70:30

Also, 32% of Biden voters say they are worse off now than in 2020, that is very bad for Biden.

The numbers are clear, anyone trying to remove Trump from the Ballot in 2024 is for autocratic rule and is opposing democratic rule.

In the 2020 election the FBI had the Hunter Biden Laptop in the Fall of 2019 but they claimed they sat on this because it would be seen as "election interference" even though it was Hunter Biden's not Joe's and even though the law states when you have evidence that a minor might be abused and is in a dangerous living situation you must act within 24 hours. So put that into context when you see all the shenanigans the DOJ is doing now to gag Trump and get him off the ballot.

 

[Aviva]

I had a paragraph and I deleted it. Instead I have a simple question, do you see Trump as a fascist?

I'll answer your questions if you answer one for me first. If you give me a pithy or wise donkey answer like Biden/the left/whatever I'll stop taking you seriously and move on.

How do you personally define fascism or authoritarianism? I'm not asking you who you think is one, I'm asking how you personally define and understand those terms.

 

[ZNP]

 

[Nehemiah6]

How do you personally define fascism or authoritarianism?

I know this is not addressed to me, but it is not a question of "personally". Merriam-Webster says that Fascism is "a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted". Under this definition there is no way that Trump could ever be called Fascist. In fact Trump should have been a real dictator while he was in office. Instead he allowed the Deep State and his enemies to hijack his agenda. And he will never be a dictator because he respects the Constitution.

As to "authoritarianism" (or totalitarianism), that applies to both Fascism and Communism. the difference is that Fascism CONTROLS business and labor, but does not own it outright, while Communism (the State) OWNS everything, and the citizens own nothing. But both ideologies shut down opposition and free speech. So now we have the Biden regime which is in fact Marxist/Communist/Fascist/Racist/Anarchist (all at the same time). They use all the powers of government to censor their opponents and also lock them up. Now they want to lock up Trump.

The real question -- which no one is asking -- is this: "Where are the Marines, the Special Forces, and all the other men who were trained to oppose domestic enemies and the destruction of the Constitution, freedom, democracy, justice etc."? In the past they were sent out to foreign lands for this purpose but when their own country is being totally destroyed by domestic enemies they are simply sitting back and doing nothing.

Here is the oath they take: "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

[Smoke]

Lots of republicans have tried that. And it's failed every time.

There's only one thing wrong with unrestrained capitalism ... human greed.

What I don't get is why people think these Republicans who do this are "conservative". It's the OPPOSITE of conservatism to increase debt by not cutting back on entitlements while simultaneously lowering taxes for corporations.

As my buddy @ZNP says, there is no such thing as coincidence. It's not a coincidence that once these politicians create these corporate tax breaks aka corporate welfare, they retire and become a member of their board. This isn't even a Republican or Democrat issue... it infects them both.

 

[Aviva]

I know this is not addressed to me, but it is not a question of "personally". Merriam-Webster says that Fascism is "a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted". Under this definition there is no way that Trump could ever be called Fascist. In fact Trump should have been a real dictator while he was in office. Instead he allowed the Deep State and his enemies to hijack his agenda. And he will never be a dictator because he respects the Constitution.

As to "authoritarianism" (or totalitarianism), that applies to both Fascism and Communism. the difference is that Fascism CONTROLS business and labor, but does not own it outright, while Communism (the State) OWNS everything, and the citizens own nothing. But both ideologies shut down opposition and free speech. So now we have the Biden regime which is in fact Marxist/Communist/Fascist/Racist/Anarchist (all at the same time). They use all the powers of government to censor their opponents and also lock them up. Now they want to lock up Trump.

The real question -- which no one is asking -- is this: "Where are the Marines, the Special Forces, and all the other men who were trained to oppose domestic enemies and the destruction of the Constitution, freedom, democracy, justice etc."? In the past they were sent out to foreign lands for this purpose but when their own country is being totally destroyed by domestic enemies they are simply sitting back and doing nothing.

Here is the oath they take: "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

It wasn't addressed to you, but it's a message forum so it's totally fair play to respond. However I did not ask about communism and you are incorrect in the following:

Authoritarians, in a nutshell, believe the state should strictly control the population and the should show blind loyalty to the government or dictator. Authoritarians generally allow some limited degree of political freedom... but usually it's minor and cannot enact any meaningful change that contradicts the authoritarian's decrees. Society is very strictly controlled, often in the name of "security".

Fascism is Authoritarianism on steroids in that it usually couples with extreme nationalism, totalitarianism and racial/religious homogeny. The Nazi's are an obvious example of fascists. They are willing to employ violence to suppress any criticism and allow no freedom whatsoever.

Communism and authoritarianism are not the same because they have conflicting ideologies... however most communist countries have authoritarian elements because, well, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I'm posting this mostly for education, because I don't take you seriously if you think someone can be both a communist, an authoritarian, a fascist and an anarchist at the same time. That's like saying someone is both a prostitute and an abstinence only advocate at the same time. I have zero regard for conspiracy theories and hyperbole.

You yourself are a fascist because you want the army to violently throw out the existing government, because you don't like them and can't accept the democratic will of the people. Very ironic that you glorify the constitution while simultaneously disregarding it and stating you think Trump should be a dictator.

 

[ZNP]

What I don't get is why people think these Republicans who do this are "conservative". It's the OPPOSITE of conservatism to increase debt by not cutting back on entitlements while simultaneously lowering taxes for corporations.

As my buddy @ZNP says, there is no such thing as coincidence. It's not a coincidence that once these politicians create these corporate tax breaks aka corporate welfare, they retire and become a member of their board. This isn't even a Republican or Democrat issue... it infects them both.

Nice to see someone on this forum can accurately quote me.

 

[ZNP]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/12Sc7OSg5kI

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'll answer your questions if you answer one for me first. If you give me a pithy or wise donkey answer like Biden/the left/whatever I'll stop taking you seriously and move on.
.

I'd say that's rather unkind of you considering I privately emailed you when you first came here and encouraged you. I can appreciate people being direct, maybe I've been in the south too long and I don't handle Canadians as well as I used to. But asking a question, then demanding I answer a certain way is considered rude in my circle. Let me know if you don't want to continue the conversation, it will save me answering the question. But I have been nothing but kind to you since you came here, I'd appreciate the same response from you.


ps It's also rude to answer a question with a question.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

[QUOTE="Aviva, post: 5203570, member: 327810]
You yourself are a fascist because you want the army to violently throw out the existing government, because you don't like them and can't accept the democratic will of the people. Very ironic that you glorify the constitution while simultaneously disregarding it and stating you think Trump should be a dictator.[/QUOTE]


I'm guessing this is the eventual answer to my question. Saved me the bother of answering. This is the issue we have here. People come here and swear they are conservative then continue to tell us conservatives how wrong we are and how we're harming the country. smh

 

[ZNP]

[QUOTE="Aviva, post: 5203570, member: 327810]
You yourself are a fascist because you want the army to violently throw out the existing government, because you don't like them and can't accept the democratic will of the people. Very ironic that you glorify the constitution while simultaneously disregarding it and stating you think Trump should be a dictator.

I'm guessing this is the eventual answer to my question. Saved me the bother of answering. This is the issue we have here. People come here and swear they are conservative then continue to tell us conservatives how wrong we are and how we're harming the country. smh[/QUOTE]
I have a thought that keeps emerging that the Democrats, Deep State, and RINO's are desperately trying to figure out how to campaign to Christians and so are coming onto forums like Christian chat and starting threads like "how can we defeat Trump" or "how can we get you to not vote for Trump".

 

[JTB]

What I don't get is why people think these Republicans who do this are "conservative". It's the OPPOSITE of conservatism to increase debt by not cutting back on entitlements while simultaneously lowering taxes for corporations.

As my buddy @ZNP says, there is no such thing as coincidence. It's not a coincidence that once these politicians create these corporate tax breaks aka corporate welfare, they retire and become a member of their board. This isn't even a Republican or Democrat issue... it infects them both.

Which is why I won't vote for either

 

[Aviva]

I'd say that's rather unkind of you considering I privately emailed you when you first came here and encouraged you. I can appreciate people being direct, maybe I've been in the south too long and I don't handle Canadians as well as I used to. But asking a question, then demanding I answer a certain way is considered rude in my circle. Let me know if you don't want to continue the conversation, it will save me answering the question. But I have been nothing but kind to you since you came here, I'd appreciate the same response from you.


ps It's also rude to answer a question with a question.

I am not Canadian I'm Israeli and Irish. Unfortunately in my country it's not rude to answer with a question when one needs clarification so I guess we'll have to live with the culture clash.

The reason I'm asking is because unless we both agree on what is and isn't authoritarianism/fascism, then we cannot address the other questions because we don't agree on the underlying premise. I also wanted to make myself clear on what I considered an answer to the question. What I said was if you give me a wise donkey or pithy answer I'd stop taking you seriously and move on. What are you arguing here? That you should be allowed to give such an answer and I'm obligated to take it seriously and run with it? I think I am being kind to you because I'm at the moment taking your questions and comments seriously, and I'm taking the time to clarify so I can give you good answers. HOWEVER, I must make sure we have the same understanding of those words.

I'm guessing this is the eventual answer to my question. Saved me the bother of answering. This is the issue we have here. People come here and swear they are conservative then continue to tell us conservatives how wrong we are and how we're harming the country. smh

If you were going to also say that you want the army to violently remove your government and Trump should be a dictator... then yes you're also a fascist because that's the very definition of fascism. If you weren't going to say that then you're not a fascist.

The word "Conservative" means different things to different people and I'm happy to discuss that as well after I make sure we're on the same page on what fascist and authoritarian means.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I am not Canadian I'm Israeli and Irish.

Humm, when I hover over your name it says "from Canada" so it's obviously where I figured you to be. I'm not American by birth, but I live here and therefore would be considered American.

Unfortunately in my country it's not rude to answer with a question when one needs clarification so I guess we'll have to live with the culture clash.

Not a problem, there are a lot of culture differences here. We learn as we go.

The reason I'm asking is because unless we both agree on what is and isn't authoritarianism/fascism, then we cannot address the other questions because we don't agree on the underlying premise. I also wanted to make myself clear on what I considered an answer to the question. What I said was if you give me a wise donkey or pithy answer I'd stop taking you seriously and move on. What are you arguing here? That you should be allowed to give such an answer and I'm obligated to take it seriously and run with it? I think I am being kind to you because I'm at the moment taking your questions and comments seriously, and I'm taking the time to clarify so I can give you good answers. HOWEVER, I must make sure we have the same understanding of those words.

Well I think Nehemiah gave as good an answer as any I could give. I stay on the sidelines of the playground and get many here more credit for being far more intelligent than I am.

If you were going to also say that you want the army to violently remove your government and Trump should be a dictator... then yes you're also a fascist because that's the very definition of fascism. If you weren't going to say that then you're not a fascist.

No, I don't believe that, that's the last thing I want to see happen here. With war all around the world, the last thing I want to see it civil war.

The word "Conservative" means different things to different people and I'm happy to discuss that as well after I make sure we're on the same page on what fascist and authoritarian means.

Yes, I can definitely tell you why I vote the way I do and the stand I take and what I believe makes one conservative.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'm guessing this is the eventual answer to my question. Saved me the bother of answering. This is the issue we have here. People come here and swear they are conservative then continue to tell us conservatives how wrong we are and how we're harming the country. smh

I have a thought that keeps emerging that the Democrats, Deep State, and RINO's are desperately trying to figure out how to campaign to Christians and so are coming onto forums like Christian chat and starting threads like "how can we defeat Trump" or "how can we get you to not vote for Trump".[/QUOTE]

Could be true. Unless God brings someone else front and center I have a guess that many are going to be alone in that booth and take a beat as the youngsters say and vote Trump. I may be wrong, but it's the age old question "are you better off now that you were 4 yrs ago?" If they let Biden run, I think a lot of people are going to answer no and either vote Trump or someone else.

 

[ZNP]

Could be true. Unless God brings someone else front and center I have a guess that many are going to be alone in that booth and take a beat as the youngsters say and vote Trump. I may be wrong, but it's the age old question "are you better off now that you were 4 yrs ago?" If they let Biden run, I think a lot of people are going to answer no and either vote Trump or someone else.

You are an optimist, I expect the dollar to collapse as early as this month, but definitely before April, a lot of other horrible stuff, and no election in Nov.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You are an optimist, I expect the dollar to collapse as early as this month, but definitely before April, a lot of other horrible stuff, and no election in Nov.

Well, I hope I'm right. lol I don't know, I just know the One who holds the future and I hang on to His hand.

 

[Aviva]

Humm, when I hover over your name it says "from Canada" so it's obviously where I figured you to be. I'm not American by birth, but I live here and therefore would be considered American.

I live in Toronto currently, I'm probably staying.

Not a problem, there are a lot of culture differences here. We learn as we go.

I used to be a full time professional model and I've been to a lot of countries. You'd be amazed at some of the differences out there, but that's another thread for another time.

Well I think Nehemiah gave as good an answer as any I could give. I stay on the sidelines of the playground and get many here more credit for being far more intelligent than I am.

His answer was not correct. Although he did identify some aspects he tried to tie it to communism (which I never asked about), which is a conflicting ideology. If you scroll up you can see I gave a fairly accurate (although simplified) definition of fascism and authoritarianism. These are not my definitions, they are as defined by numerous political science experts.

No, I don't believe that, that's the last thing I want to see happen here. With war all around the world, the last thing I want to see it civil war.

Good. That's what I like to hear.

Yes, I can definitely tell you why I vote the way I do and the stand I take and what I believe makes one conservative.

Technically a conservative is someone who is adverse to change and adheres to "traditional" values. I'm not adverse to change but I am a fairly traditional values girl. I'm not big on labels but I've been called conservative socially or libertarian depending on who I'm talking to. As you know I'm an Orthodox Jew and we don't allow LGBT, most abortions, premarital sex or even male/female physical contact. I am not allowed to wear clothes that show my figure or don't cover my elbows and collarbone. We are very strict on divorce and gender roles.

What I don't do is try to enforce my values on others via the law. I will never support making it illegal to be LGBT or fornicate because it's an infringement on personal liberty. That's an example of authoritarianism... "Live according to my values, like it or not!". I tend to vote for people who promote good economic policy. I believe in a strong, well run and cost efficient social safety net because in the Torah G-d commands us to take care of the poor. I prefer low taxes... but not at the expense of the poor or putting the country into debt. I think people should run their businesses as they see fit. To me those are socially and economically conservative positions.

I would never, ever vote for an adulterer because it is a serious sin for Jews. EVEN IF they are otherwise 100% in agreement with my views I will still not give such a person my vote, because if someone cannot be faithful to G-d or their spouse they cannot be trusted to be faithful to anyone else. In addition I will never vote for a habitual liar because they cannot be trusted with anything once they take office. I have no tolerance for bigots, people who are cruel or exhibit narcissistic/psychopathic traits and won't vote for someone like that. That to me is a "values voter".

To bring this around to your earlier post:

As I said previously, I believe in consistency. You cannot have rock bottom standards and believe anything about Biden (whom I intensely dislike btw) and then turn around and refuse to believe anything about Trump. Either you show the same low standards for Trump and believe everything about him, or give Biden the same benefits you extend to Trump. To do otherwise makes one a hypocrite and a liar who is also not trustworthy with the truth. Whether you personally like someone has no effect on what is and isn't factual about them.

Biden isn't a fascist, because you're all still alive and not in prison without a trial which is what would be happening if he were. He isn't an authoritarian because he isn't restricting your speech or suspending your rights. You are still having elections. Do you understand?

Trump isn't a fascist either, for the same reasons Biden isn't one. He does exhibit authoritarian tendencies and is almost certainly a malignant narcissist, which should be a disqualifier for you and his followers and it's troubling that it isn't. I didn't compare him to Hitler and such, I merely used them as examples of people with wide support who were awful. Support doesn't mean anything in terms of the quality of the person or their competence.

I have no regard for conspiracy theories (qanon, deep state, NWO and so on...). Conspiracies are dangerous and give people permission to believe extreme things without evidence. They are a form of delusion that make people ignore reality. If you really believe EVERYONE, including Trump's own former allies and judges, are all in on a giant conspiracy to ruin him rather then the vastly more likely reality that he is a criminal then you are in a personality cult. He's getting a public trial (something that would not happen under a fascist or authoritarian regime) and if he's innocent then he has nothing to worry about. The burden of proof is on the prosecutor, not him. If you really believe Jan 6 was a false flag or antifa/BLM then you're not living in reality or even being logical. Why on earth would they fight to keep Trump, someone they loathe, in power? Jan 6 denial and conspiracy theories are similar to holocaust denial... the people who promote them know their views lead to death and destruction. They want to try and convince people it didn't happen or was lied about because these events are the ultimate counter-argument to their extremism.

Trump is polling at 47% and Biden at 43%. Both are loathed and it's really a toss up who will win. The mistake many here are making is assuming the people who hate Biden will vote for Trump. That's not how it works. What will happen is they'll just stay home and not vote, which is what happened in 2015. Hillary was loathed by young and blue collar voters, most stayed home. Trump lost the popular vote but won the college. That's the system and he won fair and square. Then in 2020 he lost because he was so loathed people came out in record numbers specifically to vote him out even though they hated Biden. That's democracy for you.

The reason people are shocked about Trump's numbers is because they are committed to making the exact same mistakes they made in 2015... underestimating Trump's fanatical base and running the one candidate that can lose against him.