Sunday Worship?

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TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Here's your answer...

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


We are under the Law of Christ now... NOT the law of Moses.

Jesus or His Apostles never taught that New Testament believers are to observe and keep "the Seventh day sabbath"

You can do that if you want... but if you start calming we must do this to be saved, that would be teaching false doctrine!
From the Bible only.
Jesus kept the Sabbath in His day, Paul kept the Sabbath.

The law is holy and no verse states a change to the moral law.
The cerimonial laws finished at the cross.
But the moral law has not changed.

The verse above talks about a change.
What was the change? Use the Bible please.
Please don't presume that the 10 commandments have changed or been removed.
 
Jun 2, 2022
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Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us two new commandments- to love God and love one another, love covers all the law, you do not steal from those you love etc

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

No-where after Pentecost does the bible tell us to still observe the Sabbath or any other law other than to Love God and one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
 

TMS

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We are under the Law of Christ now... NOT the law of Moses.

Jesus or His Apostles never taught that New Testament believers are to observe and keep "the Seventh day sabbath"
I spent a long time showing that the 10 commandments are different to the laws of Moses. No. 316.

The 10 commandments were written in stone. No text in the bible said the holy sabbath was to not be kept.

Jesus perfectly kept the Sabbath.
He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. ...
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Are the 10 commandments including the 4th made void or are they all still morals to live by.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us two new commandments- to love God and love one another, love covers all the law, you do not steal from those you love etc

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

No-where after Pentecost does the bible tell us to still observe the Sabbath or any other law other than to Love God and one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
What about ....
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet....12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is the summary of the law.

Love your neighbour = not stealing, not killing, not bearing false witness, ...etc
If you obey the last 6 commandments you will fulfill the law of loving your neighbour.
Love for God is the first 4 commandments
When you obey them you love God with all your heart.

Loving God and loving our neighbour were not new commandments they are found in the old Testament.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Jesus fulfilled all the laws perfectly.
The change was not the moral laws that define sin. The change was that Jesus became our high priest and king, and also that the temple is not needed anymore because Jesus is in the heavenly sanctuary pleading for us.
The cerimonial laws were a shadow of Christ's ministry and got nailed to the cross when Jesus died.

Most people have no problem with the 10 commandments except for the one commandment that God said to remember.
Why does everyone want to forget the 4th commandment?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us two new commandments- to love God and love one another, love covers all the law, you do not steal from those you love etc

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

No-where after Pentecost does the bible tell us to still observe the Sabbath or any other law other than to Love God and one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
The sabbath isn't a commandment that relates to love for each other but love for God.
We can love each other every day and love God every day, but one day was set aside to be kept Holy and we are asked to rest from work to keep it holy.

Are we loving God when we disobey Him?
If we take what He made holy and make it common, is that loving God?

Mat 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

It doesn't say replace, it says hangs.
The 10 commandments hang on the principle of love.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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From the Bible only.
Jesus kept the Sabbath in His day,
Only because he lived during the time of teh first covenant which was replaced wirth a new one at his death. Christ and his disciples routinely broke the Sabbath as well, without sin because what they were doing was more important.


Paul kept the Sabbath.
Nope. Saul did when he was helping to get Christians killed but at his conversion (new name of Paul) he did not obey OT laws anymore, including no mandatory resting on Saturdays.




The law is holy and no verse states a change to the moral law.
The old law is spoken of as a curse, and wrathful and sin. Here's a short list:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

ye also are become dead to the law - Romans 7:4

we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6

Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death- Romans 8:2




The cerimonial laws finished at the cross.
But the moral law has not changed.
Of course that hasn't changed but you said ceremonial law was finished at the cross, well that includes the 4th commandment.


Please don't presume that the 10 commandments have changed or been removed.
Of course they are gone, in their original form.

2 Corinthians 3:7
(ASV) But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly upon the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which glory was passing away:
(BBE) For if the operation of the law, giving death, recorded in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the eyes of the children of Israel had to be turned away from the face of Moses because of its glory, a glory which was only for a time:
(Darby) (But if the ministry of death, in letters, graven in stones, began with glory, so that the children of Israel could not fix their eyes on the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face, a glory which is annulled;
(DRB) Now if the ministration of death, engraven with letters upon stones, was glorious (so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses, for the glory of his countenance), which is made void:
(ESV) Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
(ESV+) Now if R6the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory R7that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
(KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(KJV+) ButG1161 ifG1487 theG3588 ministrationG1248 of death,G2288 writtenG1722 G1121 and engravenG1795 inG1722 stones,G3037 wasG1096 glorious,G1722 G1391 so thatG5620 theG3588 childrenG5207 of IsraelG2474 couldG1410 notG3361 stedfastlyG816 behold(G1519) theG3588 faceG4383 of MosesG3475 forG1223 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 countenance;G4383 which glory was to be done away:G2673
(KJVA) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(KJV-BRG) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(LITV) But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, Ex. 34:34
(Murdock) Now if the ministration of death was engraved upon stones in writing, and was so glorious that the children of Israel could not look on the face of Moses, on account of the glory upon his face which vanished away;
(WEB) But if the service of death, written engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadfastly on the face of Moses for the glory of his face, which was passing away;
(WEBA) But if the service of death, written engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadfastly on the face of Moses for the glory of his face, which was passing away;
(Webster) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away;
(Weymouth) If, however, the service that proclaims death--its code being engraved in writing upon stones--came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily on the face of Moses because of the brightness of his face--a vanishing brightness;
(Williams) Now if the old religious service which resulted in death, although its law was carved in letters of stone, was introduced with a splendor so great that the Israelites could not keep their eyes fixed on Moses' face because of the splendor that was fading from it,
(YLT) and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face—which was being made useless,
 
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Jesus perfectly kept the Sabbath.
He is Lord of the Sabbath.

And... Jesus or His Apostles never taught that New Testament believers are to observe and keep "the Seventh day sabbath"

You know they didn't, otherwise you would be posting scripture where Jesus and/or the Apostles said "and thou shalt meeteth on Saturday for church services".... which of course doesn't exist.

Apparently, some of the 7th Day Adventists peoples have an extra book they added to their bible... the Book of Speculations! laughing.gif
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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From the Bible only.
Jesus kept the Sabbath in His day, Paul kept the Sabbath.

The law is holy and no verse states a change to the moral law.
The cerimonial laws finished at the cross.
But the moral law has not changed.

The verse above talks about a change.
What was the change? Use the Bible please.
Please don't presume that the 10 commandments have changed or been removed.
There is no verse that divides the Law into categories that do or don’t remain in effect. It is one Law with many ordinances given to ancient Israel, not to the gentiles.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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And... Jesus or His Apostles never taught that New Testament believers are to observe and keep "the Seventh day sabbath"

You know they didn't, otherwise you would be posting scripture where Jesus and/or the Apostles said "and thou shalt meeteth on Saturday for church services".... which of course doesn't exist.

Apparently, some of the 7th Day Adventists peoples have an extra book they added to their bible... the Book of Speculations! View attachment 258725
The same applies .... God made the seventh day Holy and blessed it.
No where in the bible is this changed or removed. Because Jesus didn't command that we continue to keep the sabbath does not mean it shouldn't be kept.
It was made holy from the start and we should continue to kept it holy until God tells us to stop.

The history of the early church teaches that they kept the Sabbath.

Jesus said they would be in 70ad. And after giving details of what would happen, He gave His followers instructions.
Then He told them to “Pray that [their] escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath” (Matthew 24:20,)

By saying this, He knew that His followers will be observing the Sabbath, even then.

This was the last record of Jesus mentioning the Sabbath while on earth. So He must have expected them to keep it as they’d always been taught to, and the way He kept it Himself (Luke 4:16).

If Jesus wanted us to stop keeping why did He mention this?

Also the only day that the Bible repeatedly calls “the Lord’s,” or which God calls “His day” is the seventh-day Sabbath (Exodus 20:8, Isaiah 58:13, Mark 2:28).

This means that whether John was referring to Jesus or God the Father, John must have been referring to the Sabbath in Rev chapter 1.

Because Rome was so powerful and they worshiped Sunday, the Christians and Jews were persecuted for keeping the sabbath holy.
Sunday vs Saturday sabbath was point of controversy for many years. Rome changed the sabbath to Sunday when they became the papacy.
But there were a handful of believers who remained faithful to the Bible and the true Sabbath.

Examples of these groups include:

The Sabbatians and Surians in Syria – Late 4th century
The Celtic church under the leadership of Patrick, Columba, and Dinooth
The New Christians in India – 17th Century
The Aksumite Kingdom in Ethiopia – Throughout the Dark Ages
The Waldenses in Northern Italy / Vaudois of France – 12th century
The Cathari and Petrobrusians of France – 11th century
The Passagini in Northern Italy – 12th and 13th Centuries
The “Picards” in Bohemia – 12th Century
The Lollards in England – late 14th to early 15th centuries
In Norway and Denmark – 15th Century
The Judaizing Movement in Novgorod, Russia – A result of the teachings of Lithuanian Jews between 1470 to 1475.

God's people were never the majority.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

God is Judge not man and I never say anyone is saved or lost because God will decide each case.

It is your choice. You can make void the law through grace or by grace you can estabish it.

Mat 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus goes on to quote some of the 10 commandments. The sabbath is also one of them

Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,

Even with all the sign and wonders the Jews refused to believe in Jesus.
 

TMS

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The old law is spoken of as a curse, and wrathful and sin. Here's a short list:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

ye also are become dead to the law - Romans 7:4

we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6

Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death- Romans 8:2
The 10 commandments didn't contain any curses.
The laws that Moses wrote did..

The 10 commandments are built on the principle of love. Love God and Love your neighbour..

The law reveals our sins which make us guilty before God.

No law = no sin.

If we are free from the law, we are not guilty and don't need saving.

But if the law is still in place and We are free from the guilt of sin, by the blood of Jesus, by faith. The plan of salvation adds up.

If we are walking in the Spirit and obey the law we are also free from condemnation. (But all have sinned, so we all need salvation).

Galatians is talking about the cerimonial laws and how we are not under them anymore.

But Paul talks about the law in Roman's and states that they are present.

Rom 7:7-12 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ...
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The law "IS" holy. Not "was" holy.

Read all of chap 7 and be honest the law is not the enemy it is sin that is in us.

The law was given to help us know what is sin.

If all the 10 commandments mean nothing we can lie and steal and covet and not feel any guilt.
Or we can realize that Jesus can free us from the guilt of sin but because we love Him we choose to walk in the Spirit not the flesh.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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The 10 commandments didn't contain any curses.
The laws that Moses wrote did..
The law is all the law and all together it was a curse to man which is why it was replaced.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Examples of false doctrine from misguided teachers of the law. Here is a quote from a confused SDA below in blue:

“The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.”

Seventh day Adventists teach the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the “mark of the beast” of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

https://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

Sadly, misguided teachers of the law prefer to remain on the old covenant plantation of law and the end result is a perverted gospel of “salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.” (Galatians 1:6-9)
 
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Because Jesus didn't command that we continue to keep the sabbath does not mean it shouldn't be kept.

Yeah, I've run across numerous people that believe Jesus totally forgot to teach that we all need to keep the Sunday sabbath just like we are to be under the law of Moses and forsake the New Covenant.

This is what the judaizers taught as they bewitched (used witchcraft / rebellion) on the Galatians causing them to go back to the Law of Moses.

This caused them to fall from grace and caused what Jesus did yo be of no effect for them.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Folks falling for this trick of the devil... are back on the highway to hell!

devil_smiley2.gif
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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If we are free from the law, we are not guilty and don't need saving.
it is Salvation Himself which set us free from the Law. no "if"

Romans 7 is clear, and it gives the ten commandments as an example of 'the Law' so no one may argue it isn't part of the Law.

so, seeing that we are free, how shall He fail to save us?
He will not - we are free indeed, saved indeed: God is good and Salvation is real
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No law = no sin.
categorically false, but a weirdly common mistake.

easily disproven by the same verse you suppose to prove your fallacy:

Romans 5:13​
For until the law sin was in the world

QED
the Word needs nothing added; it's clear:
sin exists with or without law.
the purpose of the law isn't "to make sin exist" i.e. the Law does not 'create sin' as your position blasphemously implies.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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the purpose of the law isn't "to make sin exist" i.e. the Law does not 'create sin' as your position blasphemously implies.
The Law does not create sin. that is a ridiculous position. it's frankly stupid.

sin exists before Adam, but the Law doesn't exist until Moses.

The Law makes sin all the more sinful by fully explaining and exposing it.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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The law is all the law and all together it was a curse to man which is why it was replaced.
Why was it a curse?
If all of us obeyed the law perfectly... what a beautiful place it would be.
If it was replaced how is the new law less of a curse?