Matt. 5: 21-48. What does Christ mean when He says “you have heard, but I tell you?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#61
We’re now living in the latter days. Some of these things are being revealed now, as the Olivet prophecies in Mark 13, Luke, 21, and Matthew 24 show us. The seven seals in Revelation ch. 6 go right in line with these Olivet prophecies. God has foretold us all things. View attachment 259115
Not as I understand it. The latter days refers to the days before the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgment that resulted from the breaking of the old covenant terms.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#62
Here’s an example of the Seals mirroring the Olivet prophecy:

Here is the first seal in Revelation ch. 6:
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. - Revelation 6:2
One might not know this, but this is the false christ being described above. The first seal is a warning not to be deceived.
———
And here it is in the Olivet prophecy:
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. - Mark 13:5-6
Christ is the one conquering. And we are more than conquerors in Him. Hell is on defense as Jesus possesses the keys to death and hell, and is plucking brands from the fire at will. Hell is in a defensive position with the gates closed trying to maintain its captives. But it can't. The Spirit has been poured out and ain'ts are becoming saints everyday. Jesus is winning, not losing.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
93
28
#63
No one is arguing that Jesus wasn't our example. But we don't possess the ability to do as He does except He dwells within us.
Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow Christ's example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Christ lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is the way that we also live when he is living in us, yet most Christians think that it makes perfect sense to interpret the Bible as arguing against following Christ's example of obedience to God.

Just copying what Jesus does is not keeping the law. Outwardly it appears we are. But unless He is working in through our hearts, we will not be keeping the commandments from the heart. You will be as the Pharisees...whited sepulchers outwardly, but inwardly full of dead men's bones.
We aren't to copy Jesus. We are to walk in the Spirit and the same power that raised Him from the dead will be at work in us to empower us to live as He did.
Copying what Jesus did doesn't constitute obedience. Christ living in a person constitutes the perfect keeping of the law completely.
The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so God is holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, and if all of these invisible aspects of God's nature were in the form of a body that we can see, then that would be the Son, which he expressed through setting a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. So the goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us how to testify about aspects of God's nature and the way to follow Christ is by also testifying about those aspects of His nature by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law. For example, by doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, which are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about more than an outward performance and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Mosaic Law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so Jesus was calling the Pharisees to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with the weightier matters that are aspects of God's nature/fruits of the Spirit that it was given to teach us how to express.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
93
28
#64
Hi everyone, it Christmas day in Darwin NT.

I have had a look at the thread posts

Bilk, I agree that the subject of the distinction between the letter or the LAW, or TORAH, also called by those complicating perverters of simplicity, theologians, the Decalogue or the Ten Words, and the Spirit of the Law goes back to Ex. 19:8, where the Children of Israel boastingly, (implied from the original Hebrew), tell Moses that they could do everything that God tells them to do. (And there is prophetic foreshadowing in verses 10-11 of the Second Advent). This is a very important scripture passage with regard to the CAPSTONE, the story of the church AFTER the catching-away, which happens on the THIRD DAY (2,000 years after Jesus' RESURRECTION, 2 Pet 3:8 the Day for a Millennium prophetic principle).
So God gave a bunch of unbelieving Hebrews who had come out Egypt (for a Three Day journey) a set of 'RULES' for spiritual BABIES. And that is the basis of the Letter of the Law.
But neither does God waste anything He gives.
Thus the Spirit of the Law is the true intent of God that has MAN depending on Him for the power to fulfill the Law. In that we depend on the work of Jesus on the cross to REVERSE the CURSES that God placed on Adam, Eve, and the Ground (the creation).
Jesus is pointing out the contrast between a fleshly 'I can do' attitude often seen when 3yr Olds think they can dress themselves. And a spiritual in You 'I have done through Your death' attitude of FAITH.

Hope that helps guys,

Your servant in Christ,
Jepethiel.
Hello,

A covenant is essentially a serious agreement between two parties about what they will do, so the "I do" has nothing to do with boasting, just two people getting married with an "I do" has nothing to do with boasting. In Deuteronomy 30:11-16, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience to it brings life, and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so believing that what God has instructed is is a matter of faith in God's word, not a matter of boasting.

The distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is in regard to whether someone is focused on following a law as it is written or whether they are focused on following it according to its intent. For example, in Leviticus 19:12, it prohibits swearing falsely by God's name, so someone who was focused on following the spirit of that law would understand that we are not free to swear falsely whereas someone who as focused on following the letter of that law would understand that we are free to swear falsely just as long as we swear by something other than God's name, which is incidentally the issue Jesus was addressing in Matthew 5:33-37).
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#65
Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow Christ's example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Christ lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is the way that we also live when he is living in us, yet most Christians think that it makes perfect sense to interpret the Bible as arguing against following Christ's example of obedience to God.


The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so God is holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, and if all of these invisible aspects of God's nature were in the form of a body that we can see, then that would be the Son, which he expressed through setting a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. So the goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us how to testify about aspects of God's nature and the way to follow Christ is by also testifying about those aspects of His nature by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law. For example, by doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, which are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about more than an outward performance and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Mosaic Law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so Jesus was calling the Pharisees to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with the weightier matters that are aspects of God's nature/fruits of the Spirit that it was given to teach us how to express.
None of what you stated is wrong that Christ is our example and we are obligated to live a life of obedience. Those are given. The question is how? Jesus was given the Spirit without measure. We, too, are to walk in the Spirit.
I'm not arguing your first 2 points. I'm trying to show you how obedience is actually accomplished. It's not by trying to copy Jesus; rather, it's by being empowered by Him as we walk in the Spirit.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
93
28
#66
None of what you stated is wrong that Christ is our example and we are obligated to live a life of obedience. Those are given. The question is how? Jesus was given the Spirit without measure. We, too, are to walk in the Spirit.
I'm not arguing your first 2 points. I'm trying to show you how obedience is actually accomplished. It's not by trying to copy Jesus; rather, it's by being empowered by Him as we walk in the Spirit.
Copying Jesus is copying the fruits of the Spirit that he expressed in obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), so it was never intended to be obeyed apart from expressing aspects of God's nature.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#67
Copying Jesus is copying the fruits of the Spirit that he expressed in obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), so it was never intended to be obeyed apart from expressing aspects of God's nature.
No it's not. It only mimics His outward behavior; it doesn't reflect the heart from which He is motivated. Your heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. His heart is pure. So simply copying His behavior doesn't provide you with purity in motive. You haven't truly obeyed if you are only conformed outwardly.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
93
28
#68
No it's not. It only mimics His outward behavior; it doesn't reflect the heart from which He is motivated. Your heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. His heart is pure. So simply copying His behavior doesn't provide you with purity in motive. You haven't truly obeyed if you are only conformed outwardly.
Again, in Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God's law has always been a manner of the heart and has never been just about our outward behavior.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,511
1,413
113
#69
Christ is the one conquering. And we are more than conquerors in Him. Hell is on defense as Jesus possesses the keys to death and hell, and is plucking brands from the fire at will. Hell is in a defensive position with the gates closed trying to maintain its captives. But it can't. The Spirit has been poured out and ain'ts are becoming saints everyday. Jesus is winning, not losing.
What has this got to do with my most recent post to you? Did you understand it? You were asking about the message of the book of Revelation; yes?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#70
Again, in Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God's law has always been a manner of the heart and has never been just about our outward behavior.
Of course. And it's in salvation that the circumcision of the heart is accomplished. But you still never deal with the source of the power of obedience. It's not you. It is the Spirit. And He is not under your control. You are to be under His. And unless you are, you aren't obedient, regardless of what you believe.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#71
What has this got to do with my most recent post to you? Did you understand it? You were asking about the message of the book of Revelation; yes?
You said it was the antichrist who in conquering.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,781
13,414
113
#72
I agree that they are distinct covenants, though Jeremiah 31:33 says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our heats,
Jeremiah doesn't say "Mosaic". Let's not be adding to God's word.

so following the Mosaic Law is not one of the ways in which they are distinct.
Given my point above, your point falls flat.

All of God's covenants are made with the same eternal God with the same eternal nature, so the way to act in accordance with God's nature is therefore also eternal regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.
If I make a contract with one person, and a different contract with another person, is the second person bound to the terms of the first contract? No. In the same way, the Mosaic law was given to Israel, and the covenant in Christ's blood is given to all people. They terms are different. Those under the blood are not bound by the terms of the Sinai covenant.

The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, which means that he embodied the Mosaic Law by living in sinless obedience to it, so obeying God's word is the way to relate to Him and Jesus.
Wrong. The way to obey God's word is to believe in Jesus, which is what God directly says. He hasn't said to all the gentiles, "Obey the terms of the Sinai covenant and you will by My people."
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,917
1,256
113
#73
New Jerusalem is the church.
No, the church is on Earth long before NJ comes down.


This is what came down from heaven and started through the Spirit on Pentecost. It's new because it is under a new covenant and consists of people who are new creations.
The new covenant began at the cross. NJ is a new city for the new Earth coming from a new heaven. It will be the eternal home for the Trinity.


It is ruled by Jesus who dwells in believers...ruling and reigning with Him.
The rule of saints ruling over the nations with a rod of iron ended before the NHNE and NJ.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
93
28
#75
Jeremiah doesn't say "Mosaic". Let's not be adding to God's word.


Given my point above, your point falls flat.
Jeremiah 31:33 uses the Hebrew word "Torah", which refers to the Mosaic Law. I could have alternatively said that following the Torah is not one of ways in which the Mosaic and New Covenants are distinct, so your point falls flat.

If I make a contract with one person, and a different contract with another person, is the second person bound to the terms of the first contract? No. In the same way, the Mosaic law was given to Israel, and the covenant in Christ's blood is given to all people. The terms are different. Those under the blood are not bound by the terms of the Sinai covenant.
God sovereign, so He isn't required to make contracts that we need to have agreed to first in order for us to become obligated to act in accordance with His nature and to refrain from sin. In Jeremiah 31:31-33, the New Covenant was only. made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel and it involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. The purpose of the Torah is to teach us how to know the God of Israel, how to worship Him, how to love Him, how to believe in Him, and how to testify about Him through acting in accordance with His nature, so those instructions are available to anyone who wants to do those things regardless of whether or not they are under contractual obligation to do them.

Wrong. The way to obey God's word is to believe in Jesus, which is what God directly says. He hasn't said to all the gentiles, "Obey the terms of the Sinai covenant and you will by My people."
God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh. The way that we choose to live testifies about what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so by doing good works in obedience to the Torah, we are testifying that God is good and thereby we are also expressing the belief that God is good, and the same is true for other aspects of God's nature. It is contradictory to believe in God's word made flesh while not believing in God's word.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,511
1,413
113
#77
You said it was the antichrist who in conquering.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

- Revelation 12:9 (KJV)
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
#79
No, the church is on Earth long before NJ comes down.




The new covenant began at the cross. NJ is a new city for the new Earth coming from a new heaven. It will be the eternal home for the Trinity.




The rule of saints ruling over the nations with a rod of iron ended before the NHNE and NJ.
I disagree. New creations live in new places. If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. He lives in the new Jerusalem. It is the kingdom of God. It is a spiritual kingdom ruled by Jesus and consists of all true believers. It is the city made without hands that is ruled by peace and righteousness provided by Christ. And this kingdom is eternal and will never end.
This is the city Abraham sought.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,781
13,414
113
#80
Jeremiah 31:33 uses the Hebrew word "Torah", which refers to the Mosaic Law. I could have alternatively said that following the Torah is not one of ways in which the Mosaic and New Covenants are distinct, so your point falls flat.
The Torah is more than the Mosaic Law.

God sovereign, so He isn't required to make contracts that we need to have agreed to first in order for us to become obligated to act in accordance with His nature and to refrain from sin.
Irrelevant and totally missing the point.

In Jeremiah 31:31-33, the New Covenant was only. made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel and it involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts
The word "only" is not there. You're adding to Scripture... again.

God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh.
No, it is not. There isn't a single verse that connects obeying the terms of the Sinai covenant with believing in Jesus.

The way that we choose to live testifies about what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so by doing good works in obedience to the Torah, we are testifying that God is good
No, by doing so we would be testifying that we don't believe Him at His word, because we would be rejecting His word which says, "Believe in the One I have sent."