What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[Mem]

Not possible until saved/born-again. Unsaved (natural man) is oblivious to things spiritual. Please read carefully, especially v14 below.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The "measure" spoken of in the Bible is an ability to measure/assess the faith of Christ - that His faith brought salvation, which ability, is given only to those saved. It does not mean that everyone is given a measure of faith - as in everyone is given some faith - they are not.

Yes, they are. The foolish might bury 'know' the master reaps where he does not sow, but he is given at least one measure to do see if he'd do what he should with it.

 

[rogerg]

But scripture says that each of us is given a measure of faith that we do not as much receive as we do offer it to God.

No, it does not say that. It says that those saved are given an ability to measure faith. It is "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith", being Christ's faith. Observe:

[Rom 12:3 KJV] 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Rom 12:3
For G1063 I say, G3004 through G1223 the grace G5485 given G1325 unto me, G3427 to every man G3956 that is G5607 among G1722 you, G5213 not G3361 to think of himself more G3844 highly G5252 than G3739 he ought G1163 to think; G5426 but G235 to think G5426 soberly, G1519 G4993 according as G5613 God G2316 hath dealt G3307 to every man G1538 the measure G3358 of faith. G4102

metron (Key) (G3358)
measure, an instrument for measuring

 

[rogerg]

Yes, they are. The foolish might bury 'know' the master reaps where he does not sow, but he is given at least one measure to do see if he'd do what he should with it.

If you say that then you directly contradict that verse that says the exact opposite - that unsaved man can, in no sense, know
things spiritual. Did you read the "neither can he know them part"?

 

[Mem]

No, it does not say that. It says that those saved are given an ability to measure faith. It is "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith", being Christ's faith. Observe:

[Rom 12:3 KJV] 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Rom 12:3
For G1063 I say, G3004 through G1223 the grace G5485 given G1325 unto me, G3427 to every man G3956 that is G5607 among G1722 you, G5213 not G3361 to think of himself more G3844 highly G5252 than G3739 he ought G1163 to think; G5426 but G235 to think G5426 soberly, G1519 G4993 according as G5613 God G2316 hath dealt G3307 to every man G1538 the measure G3358 of faith. G4102

metron (Key) (G3358)
measure, an instrument for measuring

ok, should I suppose then that every man doesn't mean every man? It is apparent that G3956 and G1538 makes a distinction between the two occurrences. Which means every man and which means every man that is among you?

 

[Mem]

If you say that then you directly contradict that verse that says the exact opposite - that unsaved man can, in no sense, know
things spiritual. Did you read the "neither can he know them part"?

I'm only contradicting your understanding which you've adopted as doctrine.

 

[rogerg]

ok, should I suppose then that every man doesn't mean every man? It is apparent that G3956 and G1538 makes a distinction between the two occurrences. Which means every man and which means every man that is among you?

Don't follow you.

 

[rogerg]

I'm only contradicting your understanding which you've adopted as doctrine.

I am only saying what the verse says. When it says, "neither can they know", that is unambiguous, clear, and leaving no room for dispute or debate. To say otherwise is to contradict the words of the verse, not Roger's words.

 

[Mem]

Don't follow you.

You provided the numerical reference for "measure" along with each word within the verse within its context and I noticed that the first occurrence of 'every man' and the second occurrence have differing numerical references.

 

[rogerg]

I'm only contradicting your understanding which you've adopted as doctrine.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to in my prior post. Please clarify your point

 

[Mem]

I am only saying what the verse says. When it says, "neither can they know", that is unambiguous, clear, and leaving no room for dispute or debate. To say otherwise is to contradict the words of the verse, not Roger's words.

It says neither can they know, and nothing about any inability to offer faith, even if it acknowledges the withholding of it.

 

[rogerg]

You provided the numerical reference for "measure" along with each word within the verse within its context and I noticed that the first occurrence of 'every man' and the second occurrence have differing numerical references.

what matters is that it is the measure of faith, not a measure of faith. which verse did you use to determine "a measure of faith"?

 

[Mem]

Rom 12:3
For G1063 I say, G3004 through G1223 the grace G5485 given G1325 unto me, G3427 to every man G3956 that is G5607 among G1722 you, G5213 not G3361 to think of himself more G3844 highly G5252 than G3739 he ought G1163 to think; G5426 but G235 to think G5426 soberly, G1519 G4993 according as G5613 God G2316 hath dealt G3307 to every man G1538 the measure G3358 of faith. G4102

metron (Key) (G3358)
measure, an instrument for measuring

to every man G3956 (that is among you) and to every man G1538 (that is dealt a measure of faith). not the same group, even though the former is included in the latter, there is a distinction of meaning.

 

[rogerg]

It says neither can they know, and nothing about any inability to offer faith, even if it acknowledges the withholding of it.

How can anyone who claims to produce faith from their understanding do so when they don't know
that which they're basing that faith upon?

 

[rogerg]

to every man G3956 (that is among you) and to every man G1538 (that is dealt a measure of faith). not the same group, even though the former is included in the latter, there is a distinction of meaning.

Is there a second reference to "measure of faith" anywhere? "measure of faith" is only in that one verse from what I've found and
that is "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith", and that is the important point, regardless of who the "man" is, it applies to both.

 

[Mem]

what matters is that it is the measure of faith, not a measure of faith. which verse did you use to determine "a measure of faith"?

I'm not to proud to be corrected my mispeaking in regard to the accuracy of 'the' rather than 'a,' assuming that "the" regards 'the only one particular faith that counts is that which is of interest to God what we do with.'

 

[Mem]

Is there a second reference to "measure of faith" anywhere? "measure of faith" is only in that one verse from what I've found and
that is "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith", and that is the important point, regardless of who the "man" is, it applies to both.

You've concluded that it's only been dealt to the first group, then why... forget it. I've already expressed once my reticence to speaking into the air.

 

[rogerg]

I'm not to proud to be corrected my mispeaking in regard to the accuracy of 'the' rather than 'a,' assuming that "the" regards 'the only one particular faith that counts is that which is of interest to God what we do with.'

No problem at all. We're all here to learn by kicking our ideas back and forth between each other - that's why we post and that's how we learn.

 

[rogerg]

You've concluded that it's only been dealt to the first group, then why... forget it. I've already expressed once my reticence to speaking into the air.

I am saying that "the measure of faith" applies to all of the men referenced in that verse, unless you've found another use of that
phrase somewhere else.

 

[Mem]

I am saying that "the measure of faith" applies to all of the men referenced in that verse, unless you've found another use of that
phrase somewhere else.

I found a different use within that verse that you've are hesitant to acknowledge. The first speaks to every man within a certain group while the second refers to every man in general, even afar.

 

[rogerg]

Which brings me back to my original question.

Why is your faith meritless, but mine has merit.

If God saved you for no apparent reason and then you had faith and God saved me because I had faith in Him.

How is your faith meritless/without boasting and mine has merit/boastful?

No. No faith that is supposedly produced through man's intellect has any merit to it (if I correctly understand your use of the word "merit"). The only faith with merit is Christ's faith, which faith, is imputed to those whom He saves, by which, we come to a belief in Him. It is only by His faith within us, that through Him, we receive merit.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: