What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[Pilgrimshope]

Hey brother. I appreciate what you have shared. Do you believe salvation for OT saints differs from that of the NT saints?
Maybe some questions will help:
In the OT...
...was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?
...were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?

“was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?”

Yes of course even from Noah where our language and terminology is rooted

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our righteousness too brother look back at Noah how was he saved first thing is God gave him grace

By Gods grace towards him

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and through faith hearing what he said was to come and acting accordingly

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood;…(he gives Noah many instructions for the ark ) …… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s the same process we are saved by by grace or because God is gracious towards us

and through faith which means we need to hear what he said will save us and others like Noah did he just listened to God believed what he said about the flood to come without seeing it first then he acted like it was coming and did what God said would save him and his family

noahs faith wasn’t without the works but imagine if Noah had modern popular faith that said to God “ I believe you but I’m not going to build the ark that’s a work it doesn’t have anything to do with my salvation “

Its really faith when we hear what he’s said is gonna save us and we believe it because of we do well then act just like Noah “ his belief was what zgod told him “ there’s a flood coming upon all the world if I build the ark I’ll be saved with my family “


Thats real faith belief leads to action and belief comes from here

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus told believers in the gospel ehat will save us and what will condemn us if we believe as he said things it’s going to move us to action , to change to repentance and reformation of a sinner that’s what faith does for us

air os t just to say we believe we need to hear the truth and believe the promises of Jesus for all believers in him his word is the word th at promises us salvstion just as he spoke to Noah back then it’s the same

grace is that by the law everyone is already condemned because no one is without sin , but he’s come to die in our place for all that and teach us the truth and way of life if we just let the lord teach us we’re like Noah listening to God tell him how to build the ark and promise to save him and promise also new covenant to him which led to Abraham and Abraham’s seed Jesus Christ later

i could have just said I think all are saved the same way brother but when we say “ by grace through faith “ I believe it’s important to determine what and where faith is found it’s like this



“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The power is in what God says it’s always that way if loses does what God said it’s going to happen as he said if he doesn’t nothing will happen

faith has been labeled a replacement for obeying God but it’s actually when we learn tbat it’s basic faith to hear and obey God because we undeeersnd if he said it it’s true and trustworthy we can count on it we can let our souls depend on it because of who Jesus really is

disciples don’t consider it a labor and work tomlewrn from what thier teacher has said and follow after thier new faith …..it’s then choosing a new path in life a new leader and teacher

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Isaiah 63:11.

Yes brother Moses was a prophet the prophets had the spirit ..,,

“Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again all of Gods prophets had the holy spirit it was given to them for the same reason as the nt prophets to witness of Christ …….here’s a couple scriptures

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:21‬ ‭

“For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭

in fact all of the prophets from Moses forward spoke by the Holy Spirit the people were never offered the Holy Ghost God always put his spirit on one man tomlewd the people there was Moses then the judges then the prophets

arhats not an offer to the people that they can be born again of Gods spirit ……have remission of sins , or eternal life nothing g either of the new Jerusalem , resurrection kingdom of God ect ……

 

[Cameron143]

“was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?”

Yes of course even from Noah where our language and terminology is rooted

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our righteousness too brother look back at Noah how was he saved first thing is God gave him grace

By Gods grace towards him

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and through faith hearing what he said was to come and acting accordingly

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood;…(he gives Noah many instructions for the ark ) …… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s the same process we are saved by by grace or because God is gracious towards us

and through faith which means we need to hear what he said will save us and others like Noah did he just listened to God believed what he said about the flood to come without seeing it first then he acted like it was coming and did what God said would save him and his family

noahs faith wasn’t without the works but imagine if Noah had modern popular faith that said to God “ I believe you but I’m not going to build the ark that’s a work it doesn’t have anything to do with my salvation “

Its really faith when we hear what he’s said is gonna save us and we believe it because of we do well then act just like Noah “ his belief was what zgod told him “ there’s a flood coming upon all the world if I build the ark I’ll be saved with my family “


Thats real faith belief leads to action and belief comes from here

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus told believers in the gospel ehat will save us and what will condemn us if we believe as he said things it’s going to move us to action , to change to repentance and reformation of a sinner that’s what faith does for us

air os t just to say we believe we need to hear the truth and believe the promises of Jesus for all believers in him his word is the word th at promises us salvstion just as he spoke to Noah back then it’s the same

grace is that by the law everyone is already condemned because no one is without sin , but he’s come to die in our place for all that and teach us the truth and way of life if we just let the lord teach us we’re like Noah listening to God tell him how to build the ark and promise to save him and promise also new covenant to him which led to Abraham and Abraham’s seed Jesus Christ later

i could have just said I think all are saved the same way brother but when we say “ by grace through faith “ I believe it’s important to determine what and where faith is found it’s like this



“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The power is in what God says it’s always that way if loses does what God said it’s going to happen as he said if he doesn’t nothing will happen

faith has been labeled a replacement for obeying God but it’s actually when we learn tbat it’s basic faith to hear and obey God because we undeeersnd if he said it it’s true and trustworthy we can count on it we can let our souls depend on it because of who Jesus really is

disciples don’t consider it a labor and work tomlewrn from what thier teacher has said and follow after thier new faith …..it’s then choosing a new path in life a new leader and teacher

“was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?”

Yes of course even from Noah where our language and terminology is rooted

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our righteousness too brother look back at Noah how was he saved first thing is God gave him grace

By Gods grace towards him

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and through faith hearing what he said was to come and acting accordingly

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood;…(he gives Noah many instructions for the ark ) …… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s the same process we are saved by by grace or because God is gracious towards us

and through faith which means we need to hear what he said will save us and others like Noah did he just listened to God believed what he said about the flood to come without seeing it first then he acted like it was coming and did what God said would save him and his family

noahs faith wasn’t without the works but imagine if Noah had modern popular faith that said to God “ I believe you but I’m not going to build the ark that’s a work it doesn’t have anything to do with my salvation “

Its really faith when we hear what he’s said is gonna save us and we believe it because of we do well then act just like Noah “ his belief was what zgod told him “ there’s a flood coming upon all the world if I build the ark I’ll be saved with my family “


Thats real faith belief leads to action and belief comes from here

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus told believers in the gospel ehat will save us and what will condemn us if we believe as he said things it’s going to move us to action , to change to repentance and reformation of a sinner that’s what faith does for us

air os t just to say we believe we need to hear the truth and believe the promises of Jesus for all believers in him his word is the word th at promises us salvstion just as he spoke to Noah back then it’s the same

grace is that by the law everyone is already condemned because no one is without sin , but he’s come to die in our place for all that and teach us the truth and way of life if we just let the lord teach us we’re like Noah listening to God tell him how to build the ark and promise to save him and promise also new covenant to him which led to Abraham and Abraham’s seed Jesus Christ later

i could have just said I think all are saved the same way brother but when we say “ by grace through faith “ I believe it’s important to determine what and where faith is found it’s like this



“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The power is in what God says it’s always that way if loses does what God said it’s going to happen as he said if he doesn’t nothing will happen

faith has been labeled a replacement for obeying God but it’s actually when we learn tbat it’s basic faith to hear and obey God because we undeeersnd if he said it it’s true and trustworthy we can count on it we can let our souls depend on it because of who Jesus really is

disciples don’t consider it a labor and work tomlewrn from what thier teacher has said and follow after thier new faith …..it’s then choosing a new path in life a new leader and teacher

Good stuff. I'm glad you took the time to thoroughly answer a couple of the questions. My whole point in the exercise was to point out that salvation has always been the same. Feel free to answer some of the other questions.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good stuff. I'm glad you took the time to thoroughly answer a couple of the questions. My whole point in the exercise was to point out that salvation has always been the same. Feel free to answer some of the other questions.

Yes brother I completely agree the difference is they needed to wait for Christ to manifest before thier oromises could be fulfilled because thier promises were about the messiah and his first arrival his birth

a they believed and then they waited in death they “ slept “ with the fathers awaiting the resurrection and life see they are part of the same kingdom as we are and just like we hear about what happened and was said 2000 years ago and we believe it faith comes from believing the message of Christ Jesus whether you hear it beforehand or after

the fulfillment was in the gospel we’re looking back at it they were looking forward to it even from Abraham who heard the gospel and believed and it was credited to him as righteousness

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:6-9‬ ‭

We are added into Abraham’s same promise brother we are added into the inheritance of the saints invited into the household of God into citizenship into his one and only eternal kingdom we will share it with Abraham Isaac and Jacob those men of Faith and who all walked in his presence by grace like we all do

I like how Hebrews 11 ends after going through all those great examples of faith ot and new then he ends gathering those same together th er with us in the nt in the same inheritance the same family through Abraham the man of faith

 

[Cameron143]

Yes brother I completely agree the difference is they needed to wait for Christ to manifest before thier oromises could be fulfilled because thier promises were about the messiah and his first arrival his birth

a they believed and then they waited in death they “ slept “ with the fathers awaiting the resurrection and life see they are part of the same kingdom as we are and just like we hear about what happened and was said 2000 years ago and we believe it faith comes from believing the message of Christ Jesus whether you hear it beforehand or after

the fulfillment was in the gospel we’re looking back at it they were looking forward to it even from Abraham who heard the gospel and believed and it was credited to him as righteousness

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:6-9‬ ‭

We are added into Abraham’s same promise brother we are added into the inheritance of the saints invited into the household of God into citizenship into his one and only eternal kingdom we will share it with Abraham Isaac and Jacob those men of Faith and who all walked in his presence by grace like we all do

I like how Hebrews 11 ends after going through all those great examples of faith ot and new then he ends gathering those same together th er with us in the nt in the same inheritance the same family through Abraham the man of faith

All the promises of God are in Him yes; and in Him, amen.

 

[Magenta]

All the promises of God are in Him yes; and in Him, amen.

Yes and Amen - P
at Barrett | Bethel Music

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hey brother. I appreciate what you have shared. Do you believe salvation for OT saints differs from that of the NT saints?
Maybe some questions will help:
In the OT...
...was salvation by grace?
...was faith required?
...were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?

were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?”


prophecy and fulfillment they were told

Prophecy is speaking about what God is going to do later like this

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Joel is talking bout the time when Jesus would come and pour out his spirit upon the people ( the event known as pentocost )

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how it’s saying” it shall come to pass (later ) declares the lord “?

then you have fulfillment and what was said afterwards hearkening back there to prophecy that foretold it

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 14, 16-18, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what I mean ? It’s not only those present at the time who are saved but those who hears and believes before he came because God promised them he would come

Its also us who are alive after the gospel it’s been two thousand years or so since it happened but we heard about this ancient truth and we believe because God spoke it and told us

either way it’s faith no matter which way you cut it the only part in the Bible that’s different is after israel worshipped the calf at Sinai and are given the law of Moses and the ordination of angels that word isn’t of faith it’s added because of thier transgression ( read stephens inspired speech before. The Pharisees just before they kill him acts 7 )

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

….Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;( Jesus )

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law isn’t of faith from the time they worshipped the golden calf before that it is for no trance Passover is an act of faith Moses kept the Passover based only upon what God told him that makes it faith and what happened ? Just as God said death passed over them



the gospel is rhe center of the Bible the foundation of everything before and after it’s not “ Christs work on the cross “

that’s something he did fornus necessary essential bit it’s Christ himself everything he is and has done and said for us the living Jesus was telling people this will save you listen to me believe me and live you’ll never be condemned believe my words ….

then after he said “ go teach everyone the same things I taught you all baptize them too …..

jesus death on the cross is like the lamb getting sacrificed on an altar it’s not everything it’s the atoning sacrifice the blood of remission it’s essential not it’s not everything Jesus is everything the living lord who spoke and makes promises and rose up and left an empty tomb behind him and ascended back to his heavenly throne from whence he came we need Jesus death for sure and it was determined before creation all forgivness is based upon his bloodshed they hears about if beforehand we heard about it after either way is faith

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All the promises of God are in Him yes; and in Him, amen.

Indeed brother

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All the promises of God are in Him yes; and in Him, amen.

look at this promise dear brother

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭13:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:

then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭25:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s all spoken hundreds of years before jesus came but many Israelites had faith because they heard the message and believed then we have the gospel when he came and visited us from on high and accomplished these things. Christian’s have promises after they die also but they arent the same promises as the ot they are better because Jesus already came and offered life …..

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember what he would tell the saints like Moses when they were about to die before that ….

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ( Moses was going to die )and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭7:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It doesn’t really say which saints rose up with Jesus but it says many saints who had slept arose as thier graves were opened and appeared in Jerusalem

they that heard this Old Testament promises and believed that died in faith believing God was coming to do that for them. even before Jesus came and fulfilled it . They also had faith to be saved in Christ but he had to come before they could be raised



us who hear the message of Christ Jesus we call the gospel occurs 2000 years ago appx ….they called the messianic prophecies and promises ahead 700 years before that

when for example David speaking by the spirit was foretelling Jesus suffering on the cross so accurately

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? …For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭22:1, 16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or when the priests read Isaiah to them

They heard this

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭

Now the church after Jesus came heard notice the further revelation but same rooted message

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ot says we’ve gone astray nt says now we’ve returned to our shepherd but it’s only the different perspectives one looking forward to what he would do later the other looking to what he’s already done

You can see it’s the same message but after Jesus came it had been fulfilled and we now have to look back to what saves us as they had to look forward to what saved them it’s only the gospel it’s truly the Bible’s grand subject

whether we are Adam or the last man or woman alive it has to be Jesus and his message that saves us his name , his sacrifice his blood his word his spirit his glory everything the gospel teaches us we are blessed to have the fuller message to believe but it’s always been faith I hope this is a good example it doesn’t matter what subject you find unfolding in the nt you find it in the ot first being promised to later come

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

 

[Cameron143]

were their hearts made new?
...were they born from above?
...were their sins forgiven?
...was it predicated upon the finished work of Christ?
...were all who called upon the name of the Lord saved?”


prophecy and fulfillment they were told

Prophecy is speaking about what God is going to do later like this

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Joel is talking bout the time when Jesus would come and pour out his spirit upon the people ( the event known as pentocost )

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how it’s saying” it shall come to pass (later ) declares the lord “?

then you have fulfillment and what was said afterwards hearkening back there to prophecy that foretold it

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 14, 16-18, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what I mean ? It’s not only those present at the time who are saved but those who hears and believes before he came because God promised them he would come

Its also us who are alive after the gospel it’s been two thousand years or so since it happened but we heard about this ancient truth and we believe because God spoke it and told us

either way it’s faith no matter which way you cut it the only part in the Bible that’s different is after israel worshipped the calf at Sinai and are given the law of Moses and the ordination of angels that word isn’t of faith it’s added because of thier transgression ( read stephens inspired speech before. The Pharisees just before they kill him acts 7 )

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

….Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;( Jesus )

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law isn’t of faith from the time they worshipped the golden calf before that it is for no trance Passover is an act of faith Moses kept the Passover based only upon what God told him that makes it faith and what happened ? Just as God said death passed over them



the gospel is rhe center of the Bible the foundation of everything before and after it’s not “ Christs work on the cross “

that’s something he did fornus necessary essential bit it’s Christ himself everything he is and has done and said for us the living Jesus was telling people this will save you listen to me believe me and live you’ll never be condemned believe my words ….

then after he said “ go teach everyone the same things I taught you all baptize them too …..

jesus death on the cross is like the lamb getting sacrificed on an altar it’s not everything it’s the atoning sacrifice the blood of remission it’s essential not it’s not everything Jesus is everything the living lord who spoke and makes promises and rose up and left an empty tomb behind him and ascended back to his heavenly throne from whence he came we need Jesus death for sure and it was determined before creation all forgivness is based upon his bloodshed they hears about if beforehand we heard about it after either way is faith

I agree that Joel was speaking concerning Pentecost, but men were calling upon the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4:26. Do you suppose they were saved?

 

[SunshineGirl]

Dan 4:35.

Thanks for guiding me to Daniel 4:35. Are all things under God's control....yes. Are we all made to worship and honour God...yes. Do we...no. God gives us free will 🥰

 

[PaulThomson]

Perhaps free will should be defined in these discussions to do with whether man has the ability to choose God without God's help. Sure I can will myself to stand from sitting, or to sit from standing, just as a slave can, but that is not really what is under consideration in these types of exchanges on a Christian chat site. Also, man's will is constrained by many factors... too many for me to consider it to be truly free. Nobody can will themselves to fly. They may desire it, and I consider desire to be a function of the will, but neither desiring nor willing to fly will do anything for a man to accomplish fight. Please do not introduce airplanes into the convo LOL. The natural man does not choose God, nor is his will free to do so, being hostile in his mind toward God - God's enemy, a child of wrath.

The Greek word translated "to will" is "thelein". It means "to desire". That is what we are dealing with in discussions about biblical free will. The freedom to desire what we choose to desire. It has nothing to do with whether we can perform what we desire. I have free will to want to fly. The fact that I cannot is not a constraint on my will, but on my ability.

 

[7thMoon]

The Greek word translated "to will" is "thelein". It means "to desire". That is what we are dealing with in discussions about biblical free will. The freedom to desire what we choose to desire. It has nothing to do with whether we can perform what we desire. I have free will to want to fly. The fact that I cannot is not a constraint on my will, but on my ability.

James White would seem to say free will is what you can do or desire. James White is very wrong.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that Joel was speaking concerning Pentecost, but men were calling upon the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4:26. Do you suppose they were saved?

saved from what brother ? From the flood ? Only Noah and his family was saved by faith through grace from the end of thier world

you know all those who died in the flood of Noah’s time ? After Jesus died he went into deaths spiritual prison and preached the gospel to those who died in the ancient flood

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see how they could be saved but only when Christ came forth being born a man and dying on mans behalf

without that happening there was no remission of mans sins everyone was lost no one was saved infact salvation was presched first by Jesus in the gospel

“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a when he starts telling them “ whoever believes in me shall have eternal life “ he’s preaching salvation to those who are all dying

the Old Testament doctrine never offers salvstion of a soul it concludes like this with condemnation of the soul

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Problem is everyone has sinned and all are bound to death by thier sins

but now we can have remission wich removes the death sentance

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we hadn’t sinned he wouldn’t have had to die for our sins but we did and sin requires death no one could be saved until the day of atonement was come like the ot pattern in the law thier day of atonement was the day thier sins could be covered by animal blood


see the Old Testament is not about salvation it’s about why the world is condemned and will be destroyed

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5, 17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see we need salvation from that

even those in johns day who died in the flood could be saved by the gospel is what I’m saying but no one was ever “saved “ in tbe ot they were promised salvstion would later come with Jesus

when jesus said “ the time has come the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe the gospel “

Thats the point people could begin to be saved from death and hell until then they all were resting in thier graves brother apart from Enoch and Elijah.

jesus life death and resurrection was pre determined before the creation but he didn’t come until he came offering eternal life or salvation from death

they died believing in him

 

[PaulThomson]

Really? Didn't Jesus say Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and that he saw it. What does that mean?

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then when he died

“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He raises up and visits then over fourty days then ….

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭

then of course pentocost they receive his spirit and Peter explains it

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33‬ ‭KJV

After Luke 24:36 and before Acts 1:8-9 there was John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The disciples received the Holy Spirit from Jesus before pentecost. They were able to come into unity through the Holy Spirit's work in their hearts so that at Pentecost they were in one accord together.
The Holy Spirit released His power on the disciples and his convicting power on all flesh at Pentecost.

 

[PaulThomson]

James White would seem to say free will is what you can do or desire. James White is very wrong.

Yes. James White is very wrong about wjat free will is biblically. As was Luther in his book "Bondage of the will."
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not.

 

[7thMoon]

Yes. James White is very wrong about wjat free will is biblically. As was Luther in his book "Bondage of the will."
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing G18: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good G2570 I find not.

Inflected: ἀγαθόν
Root: ἀγαθός
Strong's: G18
English: good thing:
Code: A-ASNLong:

ἀγαθός, -ή, -όν, (akin to ἄγαμαι to wonder at, think highly of, ἀγαστός admirable, as explained by Plato, Crat., p. 412 c. [others besides; cf. Donaldson, New Crat. § 323]), in general denotes "perfectus,... qui habet in se ac facit omnia quae habere et facere debet pro notione nominis, officio ac lege" (Irmisch ad Herodian, 1, 4, p. 134), excelling in any respect, distinguished, good.

I wonder if the Latin quote implies something ideal or perfect.

Inflected:καλὸν
Root:καλός
Strong's:G2570
English:which is good
Code:A-ASN
Long:Adjective - Accusative Singular Neuter

 

[Pilgrimshope]

After Luke 24:36 and before Acts 1:8-9 there was John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The disciples received the Holy Spirit from Jesus before pentecost. They were able to come into unity through the Holy Spirit's work in their hearts so that at Pentecost they were in one accord together.
The Holy Spirit released His power on the disciples and his convicting power on all flesh at Pentecost.

“The disciples received the Holy Spirit from Jesus before pentecost. “

it doesn’t say they received the spirit until it says they received the spirit

Thisnis what it plainly says without adding to or taking anything away

“and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. ( in a few days )

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5, 8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a few days later this happened to Peter and the disciples just as John first and then Jesus had foretold they would receive

“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

….But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: ( Peter is now filled with the Holy Ghost so it makes sense to listen to what he’s saying )

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

….And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:2-4, 14, 16-18, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That tells us they received the holt ghost at pentocost ….this doesn’t say they received anything

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:22‬ ‭


It’s just a figure and blessing for what’s coming when he ascended to heaven as it says in acts chi alter one there nd then he did this like it says in chapter two after he ascended to heaven

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter explains it well really the day of pentocost is when the church receives the spirit of Christ or aka the “ Holy Ghost “

If we just read what the apostles are revealing to res never any need to interpret what isn’t there

The holy spirit came when Jesus ascended to his throne

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what’s to be done then ?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You have to follow Gods promises he’s always promised the same thing the same order it’s just about accepting what’s there in scriptire without having to add or take anything away

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that Joel was speaking concerning Pentecost, but men were calling upon the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4:26. Do you suppose they were saved?

I believe any human ever born can be saved based upon faith in Christ . But in the ot they had to wait in rest for fulfillment of the promises of messiah the savior and lord

we’ve been born when God tells a man who believes and is about to die this

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But in the ot when they were going to die this was the message

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which meant this was about to happen

“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭34:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But to Christian’s they are told

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s become about Christian’s parting from thier body when it dies and going to Jesus alive by the spirit of which they are reborn and given life


“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

(for we walk by faith, not by sight

we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


They were waiting for jesus to be born and accomplish the gospel we aren’t we have promises of life and not death because of jesus but indeed Abraham Isaac and Jacob we are hiers of the same kingdom same life after death

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s just that there was no life for man until Jesus gave his for us the promise was always there and wherever God made the promise the. Faith is available for the Hearer who believes him

 

[Cameron143]

saved from what brother ? From the flood ? Only Noah and his family was saved by faith through grace from the end of thier world

you know all those who died in the flood of Noah’s time ? After Jesus died he went into deaths spiritual prison and preached the gospel to those who died in the ancient flood

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see how they could be saved but only when Christ came forth being born a man and dying on mans behalf

without that happening there was no remission of mans sins everyone was lost no one was saved infact salvation was presched first by Jesus in the gospel

“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a when he starts telling them “ whoever believes in me shall have eternal life “ he’s preaching salvation to those who are all dying

the Old Testament doctrine never offers salvstion of a soul it concludes like this with condemnation of the soul

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Problem is everyone has sinned and all are bound to death by thier sins

but now we can have remission wich removes the death sentance

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we hadn’t sinned he wouldn’t have had to die for our sins but we did and sin requires death no one could be saved until the day of atonement was come like the ot pattern in the law thier day of atonement was the day thier sins could be covered by animal blood


see the Old Testament is not about salvation it’s about why the world is condemned and will be destroyed

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5, 17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see we need salvation from that

even those in johns day who died in the flood could be saved by the gospel is what I’m saying but no one was ever “saved “ in tbe ot they were promised salvstion would later come with Jesus

when jesus said “ the time has come the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe the gospel “

Thats the point people could begin to be saved from death and hell until then they all were resting in thier graves brother apart from Enoch and Elijah.

jesus life death and resurrection was pre determined before the creation but he didn’t come until he came offering eternal life or salvation from death

they died believing in him

Saved from their sin. My point was that long before God made salvation plan clear, men saw their need before Him.