The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

It delivered us from this evil present world !2

God the Father purposed that through the death of Christ, His Children should be delivered from the evil of this present world, it was according to His Will Gal 1:4

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

The same will of God as here Rom 8:27

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And here 1 Pet 4:19

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Also notice Paul said He Christ was delivered for Our sins according to the Will of God and Our Father !

This expressly tells us that Christ died for the Children of God, God was their Father, when Christ gave Himself for them and their sins ! They were always Gods children, He was always their Father, that is why He Loved them so, to give His Only Begotten Son for them, their Elder Brother ! When He came to die for their sins, He was made Like unto His Brethren scripture says here Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

And thats not talking about the jews in the flesh, because Jesus made it clear that many if not most of them had not God as their Father Jn 8:41-42

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So quite frankly they could not have been His Brethren, and had God His Father as their Father !

But thats who Christ gave Himself for, those who had God as their Father Gal 1:4

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

If He is Our God, He is Our Father ! Not all men have God as their Father ! 46

 

[PaulThomson]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.[/QUOTE]

PaulThomson said:
Prove it.

1 Cor 2:14.

1 Cor. 2:14 does not even mention the word faith.
We can only believe something we have heard. "How shall they believe unless they hear?" There is nothing in 1 Cor. 2:14 that indicates that the faith being exercised in trusting Christ and doctrines about spiritual things is any different from the faith we are born with.
Understanding the deeper things of Math requires that we first have heard and believed the simpler things of Math upon which the understanding of the deeper things depend. We do not need a different kind of faith to receive the deeper things of Math th the kind of faith we used to receive the simpler things of Math. The faith to believe the deeper things of Math is not a different KIND of faith from the faith used to believe the simpler things. the only difference is in the Math objects that are being focused on. We also do not need a different KIND of faith to receive historical truths from the faith we use to receive Math truths.

Likewise, to receive the deeper things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith used to receive the elementary things of the Spirit. Nor to receive the things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith we use to receive the truths of Math. The Spirit of God presents novel spiritual objects to us that we may or may not be willing to apply our innate human faith to.

 

[rogerg]

The fruit of nature acting on a planted apple is more apples. Are they different kinds of apples?
It's practising more of the same faith more consistently.

No, that is an incorrect analogy. Things of an earthly nature cannot be used as representative of things spiritual except where the Bible so designates. Given as all things of nature die, they must reproduce themselves to continue. No so with the spiritual. The spiritual is eternal and therefore singular. The faith of Christ is Christ's faith, which faith, is eternal and given unto those whom He has so chosen for salvation. From that, it becomes a part of them, and by which, they come to believe in Christ. The faith of Christ is not practiced, it is experienced - we don't exercise control it; it exercises control over us. Our knowledge of Christ and believing in Him grows through the Holy Spirit, but being spiritual it is eternal, and thereby, is only given once and for all to those chosen to have it.
Observe the 'of" and "in" below.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 1:17 For [in the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to fsith, as it is written, "The just shall keep on living by faith."
It's the same faith in Christ, but enduring into the future. It's the same faith in the same object of faith enduring into the future.

No, from faith to faith means that God's righteousness is revealed only in/by His imputing of Christ's faith to those whom He saves. It is from Christ's faith unto becoming our faith. The Bible tells us that it is imputed, and so it must and can only be given to someone by God once, man cannot acquire it of himself.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The faith of the Son of God is an enduring faith that has God as it's object. That is also the same faith we have.
If I discover later in life that I have my father's skill at fixing things, I did not suddenly download a new skill set from my father so that I am using my Fathers skills. Nor is my father actively channeling himself through me without my own participation. I have developed the confidence to do what my father also does.

No. The faith of Christ is a standalone, independent spiritual entity from Christ which is individually imputed/imparted by the Holy Spirit as fruit of the Spirit unto those saved when He gives spiritual rebirth – it is not from us to Christ, it is from Christ to us. From/by that faith, comes our believing in Christ. Nevertheless, there are other types of spiritual gifts given outside of the fruit of the Spirit (to include another kind of faith given by God directly to the person, not as the faith of Christ which accompanies salvation), given under various conditions to different people in varying degrees, to benefit of the body of Christ, but after they had already become born again and had received the faith of Christ.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

... do you believe those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ are "Jesus's sheep"?

Or perhaps brightfame52 is not alone and you are in agreement with him when he says the Lord Jesus Christ "failed" ???

I clearly stated that there was no failure on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ. the failure rests solely on those who reject the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only one offering which is acceptable to God. If you reject the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no other offering acceptable to God ... you will die in your sins.
.

Can you give me the scripture that explains the more than sufficient offer?

 

[brightfame52]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.

PaulThomson said:
Prove it.



1 Cor. 2:14 does not even mention the word faith.
We can only believe something we have heard. "How shall they believe unless they hear?" There is nothing in 1 Cor. 2:14 that indicates that the faith being exercised in trusting Christ and doctrines about spiritual things is any different from the faith we are born with.
Understanding the deeper things of Math requires that we first have heard and believed the simpler things of Math upon which the understanding of the deeper things depend. We do not need a different kind of faith to receive the deeper things of Math th the kind of faith we used to receive the simpler things of Math. The faith to believe the deeper things of Math is not a different KIND of faith from the faith used to believe the simpler things. the only difference is in the Math objects that are being focused on. We also do not need a different KIND of faith to receive historical truths from the faith we use to receive Math truths.

Likewise, to receive the deeper things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith used to receive the elementary things of the Spirit. Nor to receive the things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith we use to receive the truths of Math. The Spirit of God presents novel spiritual objects to us that we may or may not be willing to apply our innate human faith to.[/QUOTE]
1 Cor 2:14 means that the natural man, he who is unregenerate cannot receive, in a spiritual sense, the Gospel, they cant understand it, which is foundational to believing it spiritually.

Jesus said Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot do that, sorry

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.

PaulThomson said:
Prove it.



1 Cor. 2:14 does not even mention the word faith.
We can only believe something we have heard. "How shall they believe unless they hear?" There is nothing in 1 Cor. 2:14 that indicates that the faith being exercised in trusting Christ and doctrines about spiritual things is any different from the faith we are born with.
Understanding the deeper things of Math requires that we first have heard and believed the simpler things of Math upon which the understanding of the deeper things depend. We do not need a different kind of faith to receive the deeper things of Math th the kind of faith we used to receive the simpler things of Math. The faith to believe the deeper things of Math is not a different KIND of faith from the faith used to believe the simpler things. the only difference is in the Math objects that are being focused on. We also do not need a different KIND of faith to receive historical truths from the faith we use to receive Math truths.

Likewise, to receive the deeper things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith used to receive the elementary things of the Spirit. Nor to receive the things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith we use to receive the truths of Math. The Spirit of God presents novel spiritual objects to us that we may or may not be willing to apply our innate human faith to.[/QUOTE]

I will agree with you that all mankind are born into this world with the ability to grow in faith. Our faith grows in our understanding how we are to function in this world. That is the faith in mankind and what mankind can accomplish.

The Holy Spirit possess several fruits which are listed in Gal 5:22-23 and faith is one of those spiritual fruits. Until the natural man is reborn spiritually with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit he cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness.

The faith of the natural man is an entirely different faith than spiritual faith in which only the born again of the Spirit have.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have already explained 1 Corinthians 2:14 to you, ForestGreenCook:

here
here
here





please provide Scripture (chapter and verse) which states mankind is to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her "spiritual" savior ... or anything about chose to be born "spiritually" ... or repenting to the breaking of a "spiritual" law or a "spiritual" God ...

You add manmade concepts to Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

! Cor 2:14 states what the natural man cannot do, as I have stated.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

another fail because there is no indication here that God does not love the world.

If you rightly divide the word of truth, you would conclude that Jesus does not love a world that he will not pray for.(John 17:9).

The world that Jesus loves is the world of believers only (John 3:16). which is a different world than those he will not pray for.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16f ... Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2​

Ephesians 2:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

your stated verses fail to support your claim because ...

vs 1 - even when we were dead in sins.

vs 2 - when we walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

vs 3 - among whom also we all had our conversation in time past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

... God loved us (Eph 2:4).

Luke 11:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?





John 14:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

another fail because there is no indication here that God does not love the world.





none of your stated verses indicate that God does not love the world. All the verses you quoted indicate that the world hates God.

Here is what God says:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

God begs the world to turn to Him so they can be saved.

God has provided all that is necessary for all mankind to be saved.

Those who reject God will suffer the eternal consequence of having rejected Him even as He reaches out to them.

Those who do not reject God will enjoy the eternal benefit of having not rejected Him when He reached out to them.

God reaches out to all ... how do we respond to Him when He seeks us out? ... do we reject out of hand because we love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)? ... or are we a whosoever believeth (John 3:16)?
.

The 'us's & we's in Eph 2 is referencing the same us's & we's that are in Eph 1. The same ones that he choose from among those he saw in Psalms 14:1-3.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Keep it in context. The all men are those men that have been teaching false doctrines. (1 Tim 1:3) Saved= delivered, according to Strong's concordance. Every time a weak believer comes to a knowledge of the truth, they are delivered from their ignorance. Rom 10 is another example of the same deliverance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
.

You are again, taking scripture out of context. 2 Pet 1:1 tells who Peter is speaking to, and that is to them that have obtained like precious faith.

Peter is giving them a warning, even including himself by using the word "us-ward". telling them that when they commit a sin, that they should repent because God is not willing that any of us should perish=death=separate ourselves from his fellowship, because he will not fellowship sin.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.

PaulThomson said:
Prove it.



1 Cor. 2:14 does not even mention the word faith.
We can only believe something we have heard. "How shall they believe unless they hear?" There is nothing in 1 Cor. 2:14 that indicates that the faith being exercised in trusting Christ and doctrines about spiritual things is any different from the faith we are born with.
Understanding the deeper things of Math requires that we first have heard and believed the simpler things of Math upon which the understanding of the deeper things depend. We do not need a different kind of faith to receive the deeper things of Math th the kind of faith we used to receive the simpler things of Math. The faith to believe the deeper things of Math is not a different KIND of faith from the faith used to believe the simpler things. the only difference is in the Math objects that are being focused on. We also do not need a different KIND of faith to receive historical truths from the faith we use to receive Math truths.

Likewise, to receive the deeper things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith used to receive the elementary things of the Spirit. Nor to receive the things of the Spirit, we do not need a different KIND of faith from the faith we use to receive the truths of Math. The Spirit of God presents novel spiritual objects to us that we may or may not be willing to apply our innate human faith to.[/QUOTE]

The difference in the born again babe in Christ and the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 is that the babe in Christ can grow on the milk of the word, and the natural man would throw it up thinking that it is foolishness.

 

[PaulThomson]

Keep it in context. The all men are those men that have been teaching false doctrines. (1 Tim 1:3) Saved= delivered, according to Strong's concordance. Every time a weak believer comes to a knowledge of the truth, they are delivered from their ignorance. Rom 10 is another example of the same deliverance.

Now you want to "keep 1 Tim. 2:3-4 in context by attaching 1 Tim. 2:3-4 to 1 Tim 1:3, verses a whole chapter away from each other.

1 Tim 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do" ...
1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But when it comes to 2 Cor. 2:14 you divorce too completely from 2 Cior. 2:1-13 and attach it instead to verses culled from Galatians, Ephesians, Romans and John to fit it into your patchwork pneumatology..

 

[brightfame52]

Christ is a Saviour because He gives Repentance !

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Christ is a Saviour, thats what His Finished work accomplished for all them He died for and was raised for [Their Justification], raised to the Right Hand to be a Saviour to Gods Elect Israel. Now incorporated/included in Him being a Saviour, is that He gives, not offer, but He gives, bestows upon Israel, Gods Elect, or His Church Eph 5:25 Repentance !

Now exactly what is this Repentance that the Saviour of the Church/Israel gives them ?

For one, its Repentance to the Belief or Acknowleding of the Truth. Thats what God given Repentance gives, 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John Gill writes:

If God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth: repentance here designs a repentance of errors in principle, a change of mind upon conviction, and such as issues in a free and ingenuous confession, and acknowledgment of the truth before opposed; and such a repentance is the gift of God: it is he that opens the eyes of the understanding, and works conviction in the mind, and leads into all truth, as it is in Jesus; and induces men to repent of their errors, confess their mistakes, and own the truth; even as repentance of evil practices is not owing to the power of men, nor to the bare influence of means, but to the efficacious grace of God, it being a grant from him. And though this is not certain, that God will give repentance to such contradictors and blasphemers of his Gospel; yet as it is his will, that all his chosen ones should come to repentance, and that some of all sorts should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth; and seeing these things have been brought about under and by the ministry of the word, it is an encouragement to the ministers of the Gospel to continue their instructions in the manner here directed.​

Its Repentance to the same acknowledging of the Truth here that is to Gods Elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Now understand, If Christ is really Our Saviour, its evidenced by His Granting Us Repentance to the Acknowledgement of the Truth of the Gospel as it is Him !

Christ cannot possible be the Saviour of any man that remains in unbelief, unrepentant , unchanged towards the Truth of the Gospel, for that to happen would be an indictment against Him being a Risen Saviour at the Right Hand of God !

 

[brightfame52]

Now you want to "keep 1 Tim. 2:3-4 in context by attaching 1 Tim. 2:3-4 to 1 Tim 1:3, verses a whole chapter away from each other.

1 Tim 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do" ...
1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But when it comes to 2 Cor. 2:14 you divorce too completely from 2 Cior. 2:1-13 and attach it instead to verses culled from Galatians, Ephesians, Romans and John to fit it into your patchwork pneumatology..

1 Tim 2:4 is about the elect. Plus by your insistence to falsely interpret it to mean all men without exception, you must believe that Gods will of purpose can be thwarted by the will of man or satan not wanting to comply with Gods will, which is Blasphemous to say the least, because all without exception wont be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[PaulThomson]

1 Tim 2:4 is about the elect. Plus by your insistence to falsely interpret it to mean all men without exception, you must believe that Gods will of purpose can be thwarted by the will of man or satan not wanting to comply with Gods will, which is Blasphemous to say the least, because all without exception wont be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why do you say that it is blasphemy to say that God"s desires regarding what free will creatures would do can be thwarted/unfulfilled?
What makes it blasphemy?

The Pharisees rejected the desire of God for them because they were not baptised by John.

"When all the people heard Jesus speak of John, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptised with the baptism of John. The Pharisees and lawyers however rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptised by John." (Luke 7:29-30).

 

[brightfame52]

Why do you say that it is blasphemy to say that God"s desires regarding what free will creatures would do can be thwarted/unfulfilled?
What makes it blasphemy?

The Pharisees rejected the desire of God for them because they were not baptised by John.

"When all the people heard Jesus speak of John, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptised with the baptism of John. The Pharisees and lawyers however rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptised by John." (Luke 7:29-30).

I explained why its blasphemy.

 

[PaulThomson]

1 Tim 2:4 is about the elect. Plus by your insistence to falsely interpret it to mean all men without exception, you must believe that Gods will of purpose can be thwarted by the will of man or satan not wanting to comply with Gods will, which is Blasphemous to say the least, because all without exception wont be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why do you say that it is blasphemy to say that God"s desires regarding what free will creatures would do can be thwarted/unfulfilled?
What makes it blasphemy?

The Pharisees rejected the desire of God for them because they were not baptised by John.

"When all the people heard Jesus speak of John, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptised with the baptism of John. The Pharisees and lawyers however rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptised by John." (Luke 7:29-30).

I explained why its blasphemy.

I don't actually believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception won't be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
Nor do I believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception would be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

So how does your "reason" apply to me?

"God is love", and "Love does not demand its own way". So why would God/Love be unwilling to allow creatures He loves to ever reject and thwart His preferences."

 

[Kroogz]

I don't actually believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception won't be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
Nor do I believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception would be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

So how does your "reason" apply to me?

"God is love", and "Love does not demand its own way". So why would God/Love be unwilling to allow creatures He loves to ever reject and thwart His preferences."

It's amazing to watch these supposed "Spiritually superior" folks VOMIT on the milk of His word.

Seems to me you are dealing with carnal minds that can't comprehend the simple spiritual milk of the Word.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't actually believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception won't be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
Nor do I believe, nor did I say nor imply that "all without exception would be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

So how does your "reason" apply to me?

"God is love", and "Love does not demand its own way". So why would God/Love be unwilling to allow creatures He loves to ever reject and thwart His preferences."

If you a universalist, thats still error and of the worser sort