The battle of Gog and Magog before the Millennium?

[The_old_guy]

I've read it.

But you're also interpreting it with an overall framework. My seminary professor laid out for us the five major interpretations of Revelation. Then, I read the book comparing it to all of them and accepted the one I shared. However, all I'm basically saying is that we can't be dogmatic about our interpretations, because one of the others might be correct, because all of them, including mine, have problems. That's why PAN-millennialism will always be true--it'll all PAN out!

 

[SomeDisciple]

That fact that people will resent Jesus' reign doesn't come as a surprise to me at all. People hate him NOW, while he's pouring out his grace instead of laying down the law; when he comes in Judge Dredd style people are going to hate him even more than they did before.

Think about it; you love God, right? You'll do what he says because you trust him and know that he knows you and everyone else better than you know yourself; and he knows what's good for you better than you know- if God tells you to walk through lava, you will walk through lava, simply because he said to walk through the lava.

But to unbelievers- he is their conqueror. Even if they had to pay tribute and go through the motions of external worship- they're not going to worship him in spirit and in truth; they will turn on him when they think they have an opportunity.

 

[The_old_guy]

That fact that people will resent Jesus' reign doesn't come as a surprise to me at all. People hate him NOW, while he's pouring out his grace instead of laying down the law; when he comes in Judge Dredd style people are going to hate him even more than they did before.

Think about it; you love God, right? You'll do what he says because you trust him and know that he knows you and everyone else better than you know yourself; and he knows what's good for you better than you know- if God tells you to walk through lava, you will walk through lava, simply because he said to walk through the lava.

But to unbelievers- he is their conqueror. Even if they had to pay tribute and go through the motions of external worship- they're not going to worship him in spirit and in truth; they will turn on him when they think they have an opportunity.

I agree. So, what's your point?

 

[ewq1938]

But you're also interpreting it with an overall framework. My seminary professor laid out for us the five major interpretations of Revelation. Then, I read the book comparing it to all of them and accepted the one I shared. However, all I'm basically saying is that we can't be dogmatic about our interpretations, because one of the others might be correct, because all of them, including mine, have problems. That's why PAN-millennialism will always be true--it'll all PAN out!

None of this applies to me or this conversation though. I said Rev has both literal and symbolic language and that there is more of the literal than not. If you disagree, cite real evidence not this generic strawman nonsense.

 

[The_old_guy]

None of this applies to me or this conversation though. I said Rev has both literal and symbolic language and that there is more of the literal than not. If you disagree, cite real evidence not this generic strawman nonsense.

Here is a description of the apocalyptic literature of Revelation's time to understand its type: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Apocalyptic-Literature .

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [ @The_old_guy ] ^ Interesting that the second paragraph in your article from Bible Gateway says this:

In its broadest sense the term “apocalyptic” is applied to parts of the writings of the OT prophets—specifically to passages in Joel, Amos, Zechariah, and Daniel—as well as to portions of the NT (e.g. the Olivet Discourse, 1 Thess 4:13ff., and the Revelation). It is customary, however, to identify that specific genre of lit. which came into existence during the intertestamental period, but which has remained outside of the Biblical canon, much of which is included under the heading of the Pseudepigrapha (q.v.), by this term. The Book of Daniel in the OT and the Revelation in the NT are possible exceptions.

____________

For the readers to consider:

This looks like a good place to insert the following article by Dr Paul Martin Henebury, called "Apocalyptic Fixation"... on the subject of what is termed "Apocalyptic Literature"... which I've posted before:

[read also down through to the bottom of the Comments section, to see what Henebury says about one of the writers in the "Bibliography" section of the article mentioned previously from Bible Gateway]

"Apocalyptic Fixation" - Dr Paul Martin Henebury - Apocalyptic Fixation – DR. RELUCTANT (wordpress.com)

 

[SomeDisciple]

I agree. So, what's your point?

That was my point. Reaction was to the thread OP. Glad you agree, though... not everyone does.

 

[SomeDisciple]

The whole "apocalyptic literature" thing sounds like secular-scholarly self-gratification to me. You don't just lump inspired canon-scripture together with fictional writing into the same category and call it the same "genre".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The whole "apocalyptic literature" thing sounds like secular-scholarly self-gratification to me. You don't just lump inspired canon-scripture together with fictional writing into the same category and call it the same "genre".

Yeah, and right outta the gate, the third verse states:

"Blessed is the one reading, and those hearing the words of the prophecy ..."





And likewise 4 verses in the concluding chpt (chpt 22) call it the same:

Revelation 22:7 N-GFS
GRK: λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου
NAS: the words of the prophecy of this
KJV: the sayings of the prophecy of this
INT: words of the prophecy of the book

Revelation 22:10 N-GFS
GRK: λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου
NAS: up the words of the prophecy of this
KJV: the sayings of the prophecy of this
INT: words of the prophecy of the book

Revelation 22:18 N-GFS
GRK: λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου
NAS: the words of the prophecy of this
KJV: the words of the prophecy of this
INT: words of the prophecy of the book

Revelation 22:19 N-GFS
GRK: βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης ἀφελεῖ
NAS: of this prophecy, God
KJV: of this prophecy, God
INT: book of the prophecy this will take away








[sure, we acknowledge figures of speech and so forth...]

 

[The_old_guy]

^ [ @The_old_guy ] ^ Interesting that the second paragraph in your article from Bible Gateway says this:






____________

For the readers to consider:

This looks like a good place to insert the following article by Dr Paul Martin Henebury, called "Apocalyptic Fixation"... on the subject of what is termed "Apocalyptic Literature"... which I've posted before:

[read also down through to the bottom of the Comments section, to see what Henebury says about one of the writers in the "Bibliography" section of the article mentioned previously from Bible Gateway]

"Apocalyptic Fixation" - Dr Paul Martin Henebury - Apocalyptic Fixation – DR. RELUCTANT (wordpress.com)

I disagree with Mr. Collins; prophecy can have apocalyptic form. There are several visions in Revelation that God gave to John, I believe, each one beginning with the first coming of Jesus and ending with his Second Coming. The most obvious one begins with Rev. 12 and ending with the end of chap. 14 (the final harvest). Then, there's the vision of chapters 15 and 16; 17 through 19 is the next vision. Finally, chapters 20 through 22 form the last vision. Each of these visions reveals a little more and is framed by Jesus' two comings with the 1,000 years beginning the last one as a figurative description of this complete time. I believe that now is the time when Satan has been released, and the final battle and judgment are coming.. However, I don't know; maybe, the pre-millennial view is correct. But it will all pan out according to God's will.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree with Mr. Collins; prophecy can have apocalyptic form. There are several visions in Revelation that God gave to John, I believe, each one beginning with the first coming of Jesus and ending with his Second Coming. The most obvious one begins with Rev. 12 and ending with the end of chap. 14 (the final harvest). Then, there's the vision of chapters 15 and 16; 17 through 19 is the next vision. Finally, chapters 20 through 22 form the last vision. Each of these visions reveals a little more and is framed by Jesus' two comings with the 1,000 years beginning the last one as a figurative description of this complete time. I believe that now is the time when Satan has been released, and the final battle and judgment are coming.. However, I don't know; maybe, the pre-millennial view is correct. But it will all pan out according to God's will.

satan has not yet been imprisoned so we are waiting for a time when satan cannot deceive anyone partnered with a strict rule by Christ and his immortal saints during the same time period. Only after that will satan be released, raising an army that goes to Jerusalem.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

There are some who believe that Ezekiel 38 will be fulfilled in our lifetime because of the conflict in the Middle East. But since Gog and Magog are mentioned after the Millennium in Revelation 20, we need to place that battle where it belongs.

REVELATION 20: GOG AND MAGOG
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So now it is necessary to harmonize this with Ezekiel 38.

1. Israel is not at rest at present and does not dwell safely. But during the Millennium it will be at rest and dwelling safely: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates... Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? (Ezek 38:11,14)

2. God will be directly involved in defeated Gog and Magog and all the nations gathered against Israel. At present God is not directly involved with unbelieving Israel: And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel... And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Ezek 38:18,19,22) The fire of God's wrath is also mentioned in Revelation.

Satan is loosed out of prison at this time, but Satan is also finally cast into Hell (the Lake of Fire) after this battle. What is puzzling is that so many nations will be deceived at that time. Which tells us that we do not really have the full picture regarding the Millennium.

There are many who are confused . I believe you are correct..
They look at the second coming of Christ as the same event as Revelation 7:20....

We know that there will be a large population upon the Earth who will despise the reign of our King. Satan will be used as a trash collector to gather those who hardened their hearts, to gather up the trash of those nations; the spiritually dead upon the earth and in hell will be cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[The_old_guy]

satan has not yet been imprisoned so we are waiting for a time when satan cannot deceive anyone partnered with a strict rule by Christ and his immortal saints during the same time period. Only after that will satan be released, raising an army that goes to Jerusalem.

That is your interpretation of the word "imprisoned," but there might be other interpretation that make as much sense.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That is your interpretation of the word "imprisoned," but there might be other interpretation that make as much sense.

How can there be "other interpretations?" To be "imprisoned" means to be locked up in a prison. Nothing else.

 

[The_old_guy]

How can there be "other interpretations?" To be "imprisoned" means to be locked up in a prison. Nothing else.

The text says that the result will be that he won't be able to deceive the nations. "Deception," of course, means to deceive someone to keep them from believing in Jesus. The point is that Satan can no longer keep people in the whole world from believing in God through Jesus, the way he did during the Old Testament. That happened when Jesus sent his followers out to the Roman Empire and later to Europe and finally through missionaries to the rest of the world. Perhaps, now that that worldwide mission has been largely completed, God has maybe released him to gather his slaves for the final battle in the near future.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The text says that the result will be that he won't be able to deceive the nations

You are misrepresenting the text. So here is what it says: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

To shut him up means to imprison him, and therefore he is bound with a great chain. Since the devil is a spirit being, this chain is designed for binding an evil angel. Only only God can create such a chain.

 

[ewq1938]

That is your interpretation of the word "imprisoned," but there might be other interpretation that make as much sense.

Like maybe they give the prisoner satan the key to the lock of the pit so he can go out and deceive but only in a limited way that looks identical to the way he has always been able to deceive so not really limited anymore than usual?

 

[ewq1938]

The text says that the result will be that he won't be able to deceive the nations. "Deception," of course, means to deceive someone to keep them from believing in Jesus.

That is not the definition of the English or Greek word.

 

[The_old_guy]

You are misrepresenting the text. So here is what it says: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

To shut him up means to imprison him, and therefore he is bound with a great chain. Since the devil is a spirit being, this chain is designed for binding an evil angel. Only only God can create such a chain.

If it is a figurative description. it has a spiritual meaning, that is, God put him on a long leash, so to speak, so that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel. All of the five major interpretations of Revelation have problems with them. One of the major ones with the pre-mil. interpretation is that the period of 1,000 years is a literal period of time in which sinners inhabit the earth, for example.

 

[ewq1938]

If it is a figurative description. it has a spiritual meaning, that is, God put him on a long leash, so to speak, so that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel. All of the five major interpretations of Revelation have problems with them. One of the major ones with the pre-mil. interpretation is that the period of 1,000 years is a literal period of time in which sinners inhabit the earth, for example.

All theological positions believe the Earth is inhabited by sinners during the thousand years so mentioning Premill doesn't help make any point and since it aligns with what scripture says, it is not a "problem" as you claim.