Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?

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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#21
Yes, I had my coffee at five o'clock this morning, but thanks for asking. I think it is very important, as to what message we present in the wording of our explanations.

I am in agreement with most of your posts, but I do not think that you understand the difference in the salvation scriptures, in that there is only one eternal salvation (deliverance), that was finished by Jesus on the cross, and there are many salvation (deliverance) scriptures that pertain to deliverance's that the born again elect experience as they sojourn here on earth. If you do understand this, then I apologize.
No apology necessary. The fault lies in me. But if you are determining my understanding of salvation using my reply to another poster which wasn't addressing the nature of salvation, you shouldn't be surprised.
I believe we see salvation very similarly, and I always appreciate the view of salvation that maximizes the work of God and minimalizes the contributions of man. And I don't necessarily disagree with your characterization of salvation as you have stated it here. But I personally wouldn't explain it this way because of the nature of people to misconstrue the intention of words and phrases. This last understanding has been driven home to me afresh just this morning.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#22
Are all babies who have never heard and understood the gospel damned, then, if God has chosen to use the foolishness of preaching to save them? And "how can they believe unless they hear?"
If children can be saved without being preached to, why can't adults also be saved without being preached to? If God regenerates without our faith, why is preaching necessary at all?
Because without hearing the gospel. I one can believe it you can’t just believe whatever we want to we have to hear faith in order to believe it

Not a single one of us here would know Jesus died for our sins , unless we heard the gospel that he sent out to all creatures . We can say “I believe “ that could mean anything” i believe pigs fly “

we have to hear the truth in order to believe it that’s why he sent it out in his witnesses

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe need to believe the report of the gospel god sent to the world not just that he exists

we can say I believe in God , but unless we hear the truth about God in the gospel we don’t know the true God and haven’t heard him in order to believe in him the gospel is the foundation of everything it’s why he sent it to all creatures of the world it’s his sword that will divide light and dark believers from unbelievers for eternity it needs to be preached and heard in order to be believed
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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#23
Because without hearing the gospel. I one can believe it you can’t just believe whatever we want to we have to hear faith in order to believe it

Not a single one of us here would know Jesus died for our sins , unless we heard the gospel that he sent out to all creatures . We can say “I believe “ that could mean anything” i believe pigs fly “

we have to hear the truth in order to believe it that’s why he sent it out in his witnesses

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe need to believe the report of the gospel god sent to the world not just that he exists

we can say I believe in God , but unless we hear the truth about God in the gospel we don’t know the true God and haven’t heard him in order to believe in him the gospel is the foundation of everything it’s why he sent it to all creatures of the world it’s his sword that will divide light and dark believers from unbelievers for eternity it needs to be preached and heard in order to be believed
So, are all infants who cannot understand the gospel through hearing and who die damned, in your opinion?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#24
So, are all infants who cannot understand the gospel through hearing and who die damned, in your opinion?
Naw the Bible says you have to be aware of sin and know your sinning before it’s held against you
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#25
According to the “gospel of TULIP” the answer is in the affirmative. According to the Bible the answer is clearly “No”. There are some Christians (known as Calvinists) who sincerely believe that because God is sovereign, He sovereignly “elects” some for salvation and others for damnation. But that contradicts what is in the Bible: (a) that God will have ALL men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth, (b) that God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance, and (c) that God now commands ALL men everywhere to repent.

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
There is no question whatsoever that the Lord God Almighty is a sovereign God and King, who sits upon His eternal throne. This means that God rules the universe and also God rules in the affairs of men. There are numerous Scriptures that assert these truths. [But you will not find the words “sovereign” or “sovereignty” in the King James Bible (to which we will look exclusively)].


Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth. (1 Chron 16:31)

For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. (Ps 47:7,8)

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. (Ps 93:1,2)

Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously. (Ps 96:10)

The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.(Ps 97:1,9)

The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved. (Ps 99:1)
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (Ps 115:3)


Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. (Ps 135:6)

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Dan 4:17)

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.(Rev 19:6)

THE GRACE OF GOD
While the sovereignty of God is unquestionable, the grace of God is also evident throughout all Scripture. And it is only, and purely, by the grace of God that sinners are saved and given the gift of eternal life. Also, the grace of God is available to all mankind, as we see in Titus 2:11; 3:4-7:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men… But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

But you will never find the sovereignty of God in the same passages which speak of the grace of God. God’s grace extends to all men – all humanity – for the salvation of all. And the sole basis for the offer of salvation is the finished work of Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. That is central to “the Gospel of the Grace of God”: But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. (Acts 20:24)

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Rom 5:15)

Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit [know] of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (2 Cor 8:1)

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: (Col 1:5,6)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

So we see in all these verses that the sovereignty of God does not enter the picture when the grace of God is presented. Furthermore, it is purely by the grace of God that Christ “tasted death for every man”. Meaning that when Christ died on the cross, He took all the sins of the world upon Himself, and paid the full penalty for those sins. Therefore He is called “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). As a result God offers the gift of eternal life freely to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And no one is excluded, unless they exclude themselves.
God is not ruling and reigning over the earth as of yet. This world is full of darkness and sin. Satan is the god of this world. Satan is the ruler of the darkness. One day, the Lord Jesus will return as King and Judge of this earth and will rule and reign 1,000 years.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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#26
Do you recognise your own inconsistency in your particular line of reasoning? You cannot logically claim that preaching the gospel is NECESSARY to save people, and the opposite, that God does not NEED the agency of men to save men, but can unilaterally save whoever He wants to save regardless of what a person does or does not do.
Yes he can claim that, we can claim anything we want. It's not for you to set the parameters of what God can or cannot do, nor how He does it. To me the greatest mystery is how our "will" and ability to chose work under Gods sovereignty. I don't know about how you were saved, but God saved me. I get no credit nor did God wait for me to "do something" before He saved me. So If I was deceived and thought I was already a Christian, and in my hardest time of testing in life I found the "good ol' Jesus" I knew didn't help so was not seeking at all when He saved me. He granted me repentance and brought me to my knees by showing me how great I was in truth and how I really looked with open eyes. I was hopeless, powerless, filthy, and there was no way I nor anyone else on earth that could fix it. I woke up the next day and it took until lunch for it to really hit me, see I was in a motorcycle wreak 2 years earlier that left me with no function in my right, and dominate, arm. For that 2 years I had battled suicidal thoughts every day. Really every 5 minutes of every day. Well until that day at lunch it hit me like a pallet of bricks, "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!!" In that moment I knew whatever this was it was from God, and I KNEW Jesus was His son.

So if God didn't save me, then what happen here? I thought I was saved and a Christian, but wasn't. I though Jesus had no power and was not seeking at the time He saved me. I did not come to Him or do anything to warrant or initiate this miracle of rebirth He gifted me with. I'm not sure exactly what you believe about how this works, but I'm testifying to everyone right now, I did choose Him that day and He 100% saved me, so...

I understand why people don't like the idea that God controls everything, the first thing they do is bust out some "oh God sends innocent babies to hell?", or "God picks people to send to hell." and just end it there with this bias straw man that just fluffs up their own pillow. It's more perspective than actual conflict honestly. But my biggest question for you is, Who saves us? Us? God? Combination of us and God? How are we saved if we're told it's NOTHING we can do and it's not God choosing us?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#27
God is not ruling and reigning over the earth as of yet.
The present tense is there in many verses. So even though God allows sin and evil to exist on earth, He is presently on His throne as sovereign Lord God.

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. (Ps 93:1,2)

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Dan 4:17
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#28
The present tense is there in many verses. So even though God allows sin and evil to exist on earth, He is presently on His throne as sovereign Lord God.

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. (Ps 93:1,2)

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Dan 4:17
Most of David's Psalms are prophetic in nature. God is on the heavenly throne, but he has given over authority of this world to Satan. It was originally Lucifer's job, then Adam. Btw, sovereign is nowhere found in the bible. It is a catch word Calvinists like to use.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#29
Most of David's Psalms are prophetic in nature. God is on the heavenly throne, but he has given over authority of this world to Satan. It was originally Lucifer's job, then Adam. Btw, sovereign is nowhere found in the bible. It is a catch word Calvinists like to use.
Lucifer was given the earth to have dominion over before Adam? You have scripture?
 

montana123

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Oct 9, 2021
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#30
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God is love, and good, for that is His nature, and to believe God would choose some people to be saved, and some people not to be saved without their choice then it would violate his love, and goodness, so we have to have a choice in our salvation.

God's kingdom is love so we have to have a choice in our salvation for if we do not then how is His kingdom love for then it would be robotic love for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

And God is not evil to condemn people who have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

You can program your computer to say I love you, but does it really love you, and you can program your computer to say I hate you, and will you get mad and smash your computer.

If God did not choose them to be saved without their choice then why would He punish them when they cannot see no other alternative, and why would He allow them to be born when they would be punished for they have no choice in the matter.

We have to have a choice in our salvation or it would violate the nature of God.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing evil to God when He is good like when the Pharisees said that Jesus was of Beelzebub saying He has an unclean spirit.

If they say God does not choose some people to be saved without their choice and punishes them, but they have no choice but to reject the truth, then would that be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

They had better take heed how they speak on that matter for God is not evil, but good, and it does not make sense for Him to punish people that have no choice but to reject the truth.

And what criteria would God use to determine who to save, and not to save, for all are sinners, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and what makes you differ from another person, and there is no difference between a Jew and a Gentile when it comes to salvation, and if you break the least of the law you broke the whole law.

Many are called but few are chosen, so if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved without their choice then why is He calling people that cannot be chosen.

No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

No person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

Not many noble, not many mighty, not many wise after the flesh is called, for their heart condition is not right.

We did not choose God, but He chose us, because He called us which we would never of got to the truth if He did not intervene in our life.

When God calls us He will work in our life to get us to the truth, but when we get to the door of truth we have the choice whether to go through it, or not, for His kingdom is true love, but we would of not got to the door of truth unless He intervened.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundations of the world.

In the beginning was the Word which is a plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan He would of not created all that was created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to give mankind salvation, and to judge the angels, and people.

Which all creation hinges on Jesus, which He is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until the future for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

The saints predestined to salvation does not mean that God chose them to be saved in the beginning and they do not have a choice, but that He had the plan to give mankind salvation before He started creation so it is the same as if they have salvation in the beginning.

But this salvation is whoever wants this salvation.

So why do people want to believe God chooses who will be saved, and not saved without their choice.

Some may be sincere believing that is how it is but it seems like many want to believe that because it gives them a relaxed attitude in living for Jesus, with no worries, and no fear, and they can enjoy sin and not worry about not being right with God which they make excuses saying we cannot abstain from sin, but they are sinning on purpose so that does not make any sense seeing we have a choice, for they could of chose not to sin.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They remind me of these people that have a form of godliness but they do not allow the Spirit to lead them for they will not give up the ways of the flesh being lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, which they love sin more than Him, and make excuses that they are right with God despite their sins.

If you say you have to abstain from sin they will say that is not right for we cannot abstain from sin but a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for they crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, and not the flesh.

They will say they are saying sinless perfection saying they are wrong, but I would not say that for we have have the choice to sin which sinless perfection would not have a choice in the matter.

And it is not saying they might not sin for they might sin but they have the right attitude to get rid of the sin not wanting the sin, and continue to move forward in the Spirit where some people have the attitude they cannot abstain from sin so they enjoy sin and believe they are right which they deny the power thereof, and ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

A person that is led of the Spirit might make the choice to sin which they would not be led of the Spirit at the time, but they have the right attitude to get rid of the sin, and move forward in the Spirit.

That is why the Bible says if we wilfully sin which hold on to sin then there is no more sacrifice for sin which means the blood of Jesus cannot wash away the sin for God will not take away a sin they hold on to.

The Bible says charity, love in action, is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and grace comes by faith.

Without love then we have no faith, and love can only be valid by action which is why John said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but by deed, works, and truth.

Which the Bible says love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to shun sins.

Anyone that holds on to sin does not love then their faith is no good.

Which is why Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.

And James said if they do not have charity which he was pointing out acts of love then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James say that same thing all the while many people argue over them.

We are not saved by works, but by faith, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do, but when we are saved then we have to have works of love for faith to be valid in our life.

For we must have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom, which is love, and to not have love would mean not being compatible with that.

If you hold on to sin then that is not love which many people that believe they are chosen without their choice fall victim to that for they take liberty to enjoy sin believing they are right with God.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#33
Could you be more exact and what was the mandate of this dominion?
Lucifer had a throne. The earth was his covering, his watch, his dominion.
Ezekiel 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this t
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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#35
Lucifer had a throne. The earth was his covering, his watch, his dominion.
Ezekiel 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this t
These are not God giving Lucifer dominion over anything. I don't see anything here that suggest God is giving him any kind of special power. I see Lucifer boasting in himself and God describing things, but God isn't giving him control or command of anything that I see.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#36
Which scriptures are you thinking of here?
This passage comes to mind.

Deuteronomy 1:
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#37
These are not God giving Lucifer dominion over anything. I don't see anything here that suggest God is giving him any kind of special power. I see Lucifer boasting in himself and God describing things, but God isn't giving him control or command of anything that I see.
Lucifer had a throne. It wasn't enough. "I will ascend into heaven." If Lucifer is going to ascend into heaven, where was he in the first place?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#38
Lucifer had a throne. The earth was his covering, his watch, his dominion.
Ezekiel 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this t
Adam was given dominion over the earth and mandated to keep it and fill it. Where in the verses you shared is dominion given and a mandate or purpose given? And what and where is Lucifer's throne specifically mentioned?
And thanks for going to the trouble of posting.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#39
Lucifer had a throne. It wasn't enough. "I will ascend into heaven." If Lucifer is going to ascend into heaven, where was he in the first place?
The throne room of God.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,178
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#40
Which scriptures are you thinking of here?
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭
James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you have a seven year old child and you give them a crayon and don’t tell them anything then the child writes on your wall but you’ve never told them not to write on the wall

did the child do something wrong ?

On the other hand if you tell them do not write in the wall with this crayon that’s wrong

that’s not the same thing is it ? If I o or I’m doing something wrong to you I’ve sinned , if I don’t know what I’m doing is offending you it’s not the same thing one is an offense the other is a misunderstanding one has willfulness the other has ignorance one is sin one is never taken into account because of the ignorance

That’s why the law had to come before baotism of repentance and remission of sins you can’t repent of something you don’t know is wrong

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Guilt requires knowledge that your doing something wrong God isn’t without understanding of our plights he’s not unjust he has informed mankind from the start

Like he did here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can invent bizarre scenarios about an infant being damned because you don’t believe in baptism but it’s not relevant an infant can’t hear and comprehend the message he of the gospel in order to believe it they do t know what sin is can’t repent can’t choose to get baptized for remission of sins because they are infants. That’s a silly scenario to try to discredit believers getting baptized for remission of sins like the lord set in place and design and said to do

infant baptism isn’t biblical, and has nothing to do with whether or not the doctrine in the bi me clearly and repeatedly says baptism is for repentance and the remission of sins in Jesus name

theres really no scenario you can come up with that’s going to change the doctrine in the Bible the thing is you hear it and reject it we’re supposed to be believers in Jesus

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

of we don’t believe him I understand your position but what if someone was a believer how would they think of baptism ? Would they insist Jesus Christ was adding irrelevant works to salvation because they disagree ?

i think the key is that we’re supposed to learn and believe instead of looking for ways we can reject and belittle the things Jesus said pertaining to salvation of believers like saying anyone who believes the gospel he sent into the world and is baptized shall be saved

That isn’t something we need to try to figure out it’s a word of faith that we’re supposed to believe and act upon so we have that witness of salvation from the lord I’m a believer friend of what the bible actually says including baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name