Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#201
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#201
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree with you that God elected a people before he formed the world, and he gave them to his Son to redeem them from their sins. Where we disagree, is that those that he elected were not all of the inhabitants of the earth.

Christ died for only those that God gave him, and promised them an inheritance of eternal heaven.(John 6:37-40) The reason that he had to choose anyone, is that he saw that no one would seek him, no, not one. Those that were not chosen and redeemed are still not seeking him.

We would have all went to hell, had he not chosen some.
Click to expand...
I never said God elected a people, although, He knows the end from the beginning and already knew. What I said is before even creating the earth/world, God elected/fore-ordained/predestined how people would/could be saved. God elected Jesus to save the world before He began creating the world.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#202
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#202
Magenta said:
And it was God and God alone Who decided that.
Click to expand...
That is my belief as I try to harmonize the scriptures. God did give all mankind the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. I don't know why God choose to give them that freedom, because he foresaw that none would seek him, no, not one.

I have many questions as to why God did, and, did not do things, but who am I to question God? Job did, and was severely called to attention by God for questioning him.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#203
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#203
FollowerofShiloh said:
Before creating the earth, God predestines/fore-ordained/elects that Jesus is how people can be saved. He then sends Jesus to bring salvation to the world and Jesus even tells us anyone "whoever believes" will be saved. The words are very clear. You believe, you are saved. You do not believe, you are not saved.
Click to expand...

Check your Strong's concordance for the Greek meaning of the word "saved".

Reread 1 Cor 2:14 and tell me if the natural man, before he has been born again of the Spirit, can believe the things of the Spirit, that he cannot discern, and thinks them to be foolishness.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#204
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#204
ForestGreenCook said:
Check your Strong's concordance for the Greek meaning of the word "saved".

Reread 1 Cor 2:14 and tell me if the natural man, before he has been born again of the Spirit, can believe the things of the Spirit, that he cannot discern, and thinks them to be foolishness.
Click to expand...
God makes Himself known to everyone. Romans 1 tells us this. 1:19 Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them. From there it's a choice humans make to believe or not believe.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#205
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#205
FollowerofShiloh said:
I never said God elected a people, although, He knows the end from the beginning and already knew. What I said is before even creating the earth/world, God elected/fore-ordained/predestined how people would/could be saved. God elected Jesus to save the world before He began creating the world.
Click to expand...
Sorry about misunderstanding your post, but if God wanted Jesus to save (deliver) all of the inhabitants of the world, why didn't he? Because we know, by the harmony of the scriptures, that all of the inhabitants of the earth will not go to heaven.

Surely you do not think that man has power over God,


Dan 4:35, All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him. What doest thou.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#206
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#206
ForestGreenCook said:
Sorry about misunderstanding your post, but if God wanted Jesus to save (deliver) all of the inhabitants of the world, why didn't he? Because we know, by the harmony of the scriptures, that all of the inhabitants of the earth will not go to heaven.

Surely you do not think that man has power over God,


Dan 4:35, All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him. What doest thou.
Click to expand...
No, God provided "a way" for all humans to be saved. He did this before ever creating the world. Providing a way to be saved and someone actually being saved are nowhere close to the same meaning.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#207
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#207
FollowerofShiloh said:
God makes Himself known to everyone. Romans 1 tells us this. 1:19 Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them. From there it's a choice humans make to believe or not believe.
Click to expand...

Evidently, you do not understand what the scriptures reveal of exactly how awful things a child of God can do, as described in Rom 1, and in other scriptures, when they are walking in the flesh. Isiah 64:6, But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#208
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#208
FollowerofShiloh said:
No, God provided "a way" for all humans to be saved. He did this before ever creating the world. Providing a way to be saved and someone actually being saved are nowhere close to the same meaning.
Click to expand...

All of the scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Can you provide me some scriptures that uphold your claim?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#209
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#209
ForestGreenCook said:
All of the scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Can you provide me some scriptures that uphold your claim?
Click to expand...
It does harmonize, for God so "loved" the world...not parts of it...He sent His only Son that "whosever believes" is saved. You just refuse the truth because it goes against your beliefs.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#210
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#210
Thunderrr-mental said:
I believe that all this predetermination view happens to everyone, including yours here.

But my theory on predicting the future or predetermination is based on God can only see so far into the future, but not as far as some people would like to believe. I believe it's probably something like a year at most.

But what people dont realise is God is not controlling time itself, God is just letting people live in a different time to him,

So God can see your life and everything that happens in your life for upto one year ahead.

But this is not fatalism or your whole life set in motion

If anything it gives you the chance to change your life.

As even you can know what is going to happen before it happens.

Maybe it is this way because of other people in your life, or with what is in the world .

But what I also believe is God can bring people out of a time event too
yeah predetermism is basically the human mind inability to rationalise, there life is unfolding in a different time.to God.

But i strongly feal we are only one year at most behind God in time lapse,

Basically God can show you your life for upto one year at most.

That it.

It's quite simple really 😊
Click to expand...

Can you prove your theory by the scriptures, or do you really believe the scriptures are divinely inspired by God?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#211
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#211
ForestGreenCook said:
Evidently, you do not understand what the scriptures reveal of exactly how awful things a child of God can do, as described in Rom 1, and in other scriptures, when they are walking in the flesh. Isiah 64:6, But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags.
Click to expand...
19. Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them.
20. For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,
21. Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, but they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.
22. And when they thought in themselves that they were wise, they became insane. (Reprobate Mind)

You believe this about Christians?

No wonder you you don't have any understanding.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#212
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#212
FollowerofShiloh said:
It does harmonize, for God so "loved" the world...not parts of it...He sent His only Son that "whosever believes" is saved. You just refuse the truth because it goes against your beliefs.
Click to expand...

I try by best to harmonize the scriptures, in thinking that if they do not harmonize we can never understand the doctrine of Christ.

If God loves all of the world of mankind, how would you make that harmonize with John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him, but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

How would you make John 15:19 - If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There are more, but I will await your response on these that I have presented.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#213
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#213
FollowerofShiloh said:
19. Because a knowledge of God is revealed to them, for God has revealed it to them.
20. For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,
21. Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, but they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.
22. And when they thought in themselves that they were wise, they became insane. (Reprobate Mind)

You believe this about Christians?

No wonder you you don't have any understanding.
Click to expand...

If you believe this is the natural man, then you are misinterpreting 1 Cor 2:14, because "a knowledge of God" cannot be revealed to him. God is a Spirit and the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness. The natural man believes the world evolved. The big bang theory. Man evolved from the Ape, etc.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#214
Jul 3, 2015
60,151
29,459
113
#214
ForestGreenCook said:
That is my belief as I try to harmonize the scriptures. God did give all mankind the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. I don't know why God choose to give them that freedom, because he foresaw that none would seek him, no, not one.

I have many questions as to why God did, and, did not do things, but who am I to question God? Job did, and was severely called to attention by God for questioning him.
Click to expand...
How much freedom does a slave have?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#215
Mar 1, 2022
19,207
6,608
113
62
#215
Shepherd said:
Most loving thing God can do? That I don't know. But the most loving thing He has revealed to US was when the Lord of Hosts, the mighty King of Glory, came down and gave himself for the sins of the whole world, to taste death for every man, and do it all willing that all men might come to repentance. And, in the end, the revealed knowledge of that, of offering Himself and dying, loving the whole world, even His enemies, will be FAR more glorious than anything else I have heard so far. His great love will be revealed to all. But it will be too late for many, because they chose not to let the King of Glory into their hearts.
Click to expand...
This is an excellent answer. I asked because I wondered if it would be more loving to make so great salvation available or make it inevitable.
Any thoughts?
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#216
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#216
ForestGreenCook said:
Can you prove your theory by the scriptures, or do you really believe the scriptures are divinely inspired by God?
Click to expand...
I believe it would be ignorant to believe that the word of God does not bring a personal message for all people,

And if I receive a personal message I will simply share his word 😊

That's what I believe
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#219
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#219
Thunderrr-mental said:
I believe it would be ignorant to believe that the word of God does not bring a personal message for all people,

And if I receive a personal message I will simply share his word 😊

That's what I believe
Click to expand...

Then, you can call me ignorant.

The scriptures were inspired by God as instructions as to how he wants his children to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. Most of the new testament scriptures are letters that are addressed to the churches.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#220
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#220
ForestGreenCook said:
Then, you can call me ignorant.

The scriptures were inspired by God as instructions as to how he wants his children to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. Most of the new testament scriptures are letters that are addressed to the churches.
Click to expand...
I don't even know what your arguing about
 
You must log in or register to reply here.