Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

 

[SomeDisciple]

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Those in him; believers, who make up his body. The church, as a body was pre-destined to a certain fate: conformity to the image of the son of God.

Those who do not believe... have a different destination.

You and I are not pre-destined to be in or out of that body; as we have a choice to believe or not believe.

 

[jb]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

Do tell us!

 

[John146]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

You should choose scripture that actually contains the word predestined. Thanks.

 

[SomeDisciple]

You should choose scripture that actually contains the word predestined. Thanks.

Why?

Determinists use this verse (while butchering it's understanding) all the time.

 

[Obedience]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

In context, he refers to Christ here。
We follow Christ，So we are in Christ.
They don't follow Christ, but they are still in the love of Christ, so they still in Christ.

God chosen in Christ, no matter what.

For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

 

[Nehemiah6]

You should choose scripture that actually contains the word predestined. Thanks.

Believers -- those who have been justified by grace through faith -- are PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of God's Son (which includes glorification): 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

So the sequence of events is as follows: (1) Divine foreknowledge, (2) Divine calling, (3) justification by grace through faith, (4) sanctification by the Holy Spirit, (5) glorification and perfection at the Resurrection/Rapture.

This shows that salvation is not simply deliverance from Hell and from the power of the sin nature. We are saved to resemble Christ in every way. This is the reason for sanctification. But since the sin nature (the "flesh") is not eradicated when we are justified, God eradicates it when we are glorified.

Thus we have 1 John 3:1-3: 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[Genez]

Do tell us!

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in His presence." Ephesians 1:4​

Is Moses saved? Yes.....
Is David saved? Yes.....
Is Isaiah saved? Yes....

Were they chosen to be the body of Christ? To be His Church?
No....

God chose us out from all those whom He knew would believe.. All believers throughout all history.
Chose only us for the position of becoming the Bride of Christ.

Those selected ones whom is to be in the Bride of Christ was God's sovereign choice.
God, before the foundation of the world, did not chose for OT believers, but to be His Church.

For Moses the great believer he was will not be in the Bride.

And, John the Baptist? He even confessed that he was not the Bride, as shown in John 3:29!

​

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom ​

waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. ​

That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29​

John the Baptist was the friend of the Groom! He was not chosen IN Christ to be His Bride!

We were not predestined for God to make us believe, as some try to tell us we have been.
It does not say that in Ephesians 1:4.

But rather, we have been predestined as to what should become of us after God knew we would believe.

God predetermined that we would all be born during the Church age as to secure our position to be the Bride of Christ!
We are in Christ for all Eternity!

Calvinists did not read Ephesians 1:4 careful enough.

Yes, God sovereignly chose us. But it was not to save us. It was to determine our eternal purpose once we were saved.
We have been chosen in Him because He knew we would want to believe, and wanted us to be the Bride of Christ when we did.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel are going to be the Friend of the Bride Groom.
It was all God's sovereign choice to do as He pleases with those whom He knew would believe.

It just sits right with me being able to see it that way.

grace and peace ....................

 

[p_rehbein]

Is this gonna become a Predestination vs. Free Will thread? (just wondering)

 

[Obedience]

Is this gonna become a Predestination vs. Free Will thread? (just wondering)

Is there a possibility that someone who obeys his free will just same with the truth of Jesus?

 

[PennEd]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

Not seeing how “in Him”, negates the part where Paul says HE chose us.

 

[Adstar]

Is this gonna become a Predestination vs. Free Will thread? (just wondering)

Well this is to be expected..

 

[John146]

Why?

Determinists use this verse (while butchering it's understanding) all the time.

If one is going to define a term using scripture, one should use scripture containing the very word. Yes?

 

[John146]

Believers -- those who have been justified by grace through faith -- are PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of God's Son (which includes glorification): 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

So the sequence of events is as follows: (1) Divine foreknowledge, (2) Divine calling, (3) justification by grace through faith, (4) sanctification by the Holy Spirit, (5) glorification and perfection at the Resurrection/Rapture.

This shows that salvation is not simply deliverance from Hell and from the power of the sin nature. We are saved to resemble Christ in every way. This is the reason for sanctification. But since the sin nature (the "flesh") is not eradicated when we are justified, God eradicates it when we are glorified.

Thus we have 1 John 3:1-3: 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Once in Christ through believing the gospel, the believer's future has been determined, "predestined." The believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. This occurs at the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. In the present moment, I am a child of God, but I don't appear to be a child of God. That all will change one day at the redemption, the resurrection and gathering of the body of Christ.

 

[John146]

(1) Divine foreknowledge,

There is a point in time when God knows a man. "But now, after ye...are known of God." God has to know a man as one of his before he predestinates that man to the future redemption.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

How does God know who are his? A man must have God's seal which is his Holy Spirit. Once a man believes the gospel, God puts his Spirit, his seal, in the man. God now knows this man as one of his.

1 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Magenta]

If one is going to define a term using scripture, one should use scripture containing the very word. Yes?

"Free will" is only used in Scripture as a freewill offering...

Whereas it is clearly taught that man is a slave.

And slaves are not free.

 

[Genez]

Not seeing how “in Him”, negates the part where Paul says HE chose us.

Because? We are the Bride of Christ.....

Where was the woman before she was revealed? "In Adam."

The Lord put the man in a deep sleep and removed a part of his side....
To do what?

To build up her body into becoming Eve.
Only to have Adam observe her and to proclaim...

The Man said, “Finally! Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh! ​

Name her Woman for she was made from Man.” Genesis 2:23​

Now? Where was her body before she was revealed? "In Adam."

Its very important to see that not only were we chosen. But, chosen to be the Bride of Christ.
His Bride, which right now is hidden "in Christ"... seated in heavenly places awaiting the
Resurrection.

​

"And God raised us up together with Christ and seated us with him ​

in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:6​

That is where our resurrection body now awaits us!
In the Resurrection the Lord will proclaim about us once we are resurrected?

​

"This is bone of my bone.. and glorious flesh of my glorious flesh!" ​

Just like Adam said when her body was constructed out of the same body as Adam's!

Here we go!

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, ​

the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything ​

under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his ​

glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21​

​

​

That is why we were specifically chosen "in" him, not simply chosen.

This is too good to argue over....

grace and peace ...............

 

[John146]

"Free will" is only used in Scripture as a freewill offering...

Whereas it is clearly taught that man is a slave.

And slaves are not free.

Predestination has nothing to do with free will.

 

[PennEd]

Because? We are the Bride of Christ.....

Where was the woman before she was revealed? "In Adam."

The Lord put the man in a deep sleep and removed a part of his side....
To do what?

To build up her body into becoming Eve.
Only to have Adam observe her and to proclaim...

​

​

The Man said, “Finally! Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh! ​

Name her Woman for she was made from Man.” Genesis 2:23​

Now? Where was her body before she was revealed? "In Adam."

Its very important to see that not only were we chosen. But, chosen to be the Bride of Christ.
His Bride, which right now is hidden "in Christ"... seated in heavenly places awaiting the
Resurrection.

​

"And God raised us up together with Christ and seated us with him ​

in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:6​

That is where our resurrection body now awaits us!
In the Resurrection the Lord will proclaim about us once we are resurrected?

​

"This is bone of my bone.. and glorious flesh of my glorious flesh!" ​

Just like Adam said when her body was constructed out of the same body as Adam's!

Here we go!

​

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, ​

the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything ​

under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his ​

glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21​

​

​

That is why we were specifically chosen "in" him, not simply chosen.

This is too good to argue over....

grace and peace ...............

I’m not arguing.
You basically said the same thing you said before.

So I’m saying the same thing I said before.

I don’t see how any of what you just wrote negates the fact that He chose us. Not the other way around.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in His presence." Ephesians 1:4​

Is Moses saved? Yes.....
Is David saved? Yes.....
Is Isaiah saved? Yes....

Were they chosen to be the body of Christ? To be His Church?
No....

God chose us out from all those whom He knew would believe.. All believers throughout all history.
Chose only us for the position of becoming the Bride of Christ.

Those selected ones whom is to be in the Bride of Christ was God's sovereign choice.
God, before the foundation of the world, did not chose for OT believers, but to be His Church.

For Moses the great believer he was will not be in the Bride.

And, John the Baptist? He even confessed that he was not the Bride, as shown in John 3:29!

​

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom ​

waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. ​

That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29​

John the Baptist was the friend of the Groom! He was not chosen IN Christ to be His Bride!

We were not predestined for God to make us believe, as some try to tell us we have been.
It does not say that in Ephesians 1:4.

But rather, we have been predestined as to what should become of us after God knew we would believe.

God predetermined that we would all be born during the Church age as to secure our position to be the Bride of Christ!
We are in Christ for all Eternity!

Calvinists did not read Ephesians 1:4 careful enough.

Yes, God sovereignly chose us. But it was not to save us. It was to determine our eternal purpose once we were saved.
We have been chosen in Him because He knew we would want to believe, and wanted us to be the Bride of Christ when we did.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel are going to be the Friend of the Bride Groom.
It was all God's sovereign choice to do as He pleases with those whom He knew would believe.

It just sits right with me being able to see it that way.

grace and peace ....................

Our understanding of the scriptures is based upon our interpretation of them. If all of the scriptures do not harmonize with the way we interpret them, then our interpretation of them is incorrect. Your interpretation does not harmonize with all of the scriptures.

yes, God does have foreknowledge, as you have stated, but his foreknowledge was not that he saw some would believe, but by his foreknowledge was that he saw that none would believe (seek) him, no, not one (Psalms 53:2)., That is who he choose his elect from

God, also, at that time predetermined that Christ would adopt them as his children, (Eph 1:5).

God, also, made them accepted (Eph 1:6). It is not their accepting God, but God accepting them

Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.

I might help you to understand a knowledge of the truth if you would pay more attention in harmonizing all of the scriptures.