Can anyone else define these terms as they are used in the Bible?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#1
Come, let us reason calmly together.

There are a lot of words thrown at our screens making claims about the following terms. It would seem wise to first of all settle on some biblical definitions of those terms before making bold unfounded assertions about them. Can anyone give biblically sound definitions of these terms with biblical texts to back up those definitions?

1. the will.
2. to will
3. a free will
4. a bound will
5. to be sovereign
6. to predetermine
7. elect

If anyone cannot offer a biblical definition of these, should that person be confidently spouting doctrine about them?
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
404
173
43
Texas
#2
Come, let us reason calmly together.
You have listed a number of biblical terms, each of which would make an interesting topic for discussion. However, I think that any discussion that you and I might have would only lead to an argument which I don't wish to waste my time on! However, I will follow the topic at a safe distance! Who knows, maybe I'll learn something...
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
113
#3
Come, let us reason calmly together.

There are a lot of words thrown at our screens making claims about the following terms. It would seem wise to first of all settle on some biblical definitions of those terms before making bold unfounded assertions about them. Can anyone give biblically sound definitions of these terms with biblical texts to back up those definitions?

1. the will.
2. to will
3. a free will
4. a bound will
5. to be sovereign
6. to predetermine
7. elect

If anyone cannot offer a biblical definition of these, should that person be confidently spouting doctrine about them?
In Scripture it seems the context is what ultimately determines a words definition. For instance, there are several words translated as love, yet they each have nuanced differences, and also the word translated as if. There three definitions of if.
1) If- and it is true
2) If- and it’s not true
3) If- and it may or may not be true

How and where a word is used best determines its specific meaning. General definitions are helpful, but not adequate for serious study.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#4
Come, let us reason calmly together.

There are a lot of words thrown at our screens making claims about the following terms. It would seem wise to first of all settle on some biblical definitions of those terms before making bold unfounded assertions about them. Can anyone give biblically sound definitions of these terms with biblical texts to back up those definitions?

1. the will.
2. to will
3. a free will
4. a bound will
5. to be sovereign
6. to predetermine
7. elect

If anyone cannot offer a biblical definition of these, should that person be confidently spouting doctrine about them?
You have listed a number of biblical terms, each of which would make an interesting topic for discussion. However, I think that any discussion that you and I might have would only lead to an argument which I don't wish to waste my time on! However, I will follow the topic at a safe distance! Who knows, maybe I'll learn something...
All I'm asking is for you to clearly define terms that are constantly being used on this forum to generate disputes, and to show where the definition you are using in those disputes is given in scripture. The only line of argument valid in this thread will be whether the texts cited for the definition actually define the term in the way someone is alleging. Pick one.

If someone cannot offer a biblical definition of one of these terms, should that person be confidently propounding their opinions about the biblical use of that term?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#5
In Scripture it seems the context is what ultimately determines a words definition. For instance, there are several words translated as love, yet they each have nuanced differences, and also the word translated as if. There three definitions of if.
1) If- and it is true
2) If- and it’s not true
3) If- and it may or may not be true

How and where a word is used best determines its specific meaning. General definitions are helpful, but not adequate for serious study.
Undoubtedly words can have a semantic range, and only one of the meanings within that range may be applicable in one particular context. I agree. However, there are places where the meanings of these terms are made clear.

For instance, Romans 7 defines will for us. Will is explained their as being desire, and Romans 7 makes it clear that one can genuinely will something without being able to perform what one is willing. Therefore, we can say that biblically, will does not include doing what is willed. Inability to do what is willed in no way constrains one's genuine ability to nevertheless will that thing.

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want/will, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want,/will I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire/will to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want/will, but the evil I do not want /will is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want/will ,it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want/will to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Clearly, the Bible does not say that our will is constrained, but that out actions are constrained by the weakness of our flesh habituated to sin.

So, biblically "the will" is the desires or wants; and "to will" is to desire or want. Willing precedes doing, and being able to will is not negated by any limitations placed on the ability to perform that which is willed.

This is why Jesus tells us that deliberately willing/desiring to commit a particular sin makes us culpable for that sin, even if we do not carry it out.

PS. "If" was not one of the words on my list. If you would like to discuss the biblical definition of "if", I suggest a new thread, and I may join in there..
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,704
6,892
113
#6
Come, let us reason calmly together.

There are a lot of words thrown at our screens making claims about the following terms. It would seem wise to first of all settle on some biblical definitions of those terms before making bold unfounded assertions about them. Can anyone give biblically sound definitions of these terms with biblical texts to back up those definitions?

1. the will.
2. to will
3. a free will
4. a bound will
5. to be sovereign
6. to predetermine
7. elect

If anyone cannot offer a biblical definition of these, should that person be confidently spouting doctrine about them?

Are you not able to? (just wondering)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,704
6,892
113
#7

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#8
Are you not able to? (just wondering)
I can. I gave an example with "will". and "to will".

But others might like to take a shot at forming initial definitions for some others, rather than I do them all.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#9
Romans, Chapter 7:

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


You posted:

'15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want/will, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want,/will

Maybe it's the easy to read translation you are using? But, your post does not compare to the KJV.
The NT was initially written in all capitals with no spaces and no punctuation. It was later written in miniscules. Transliterated into Roman script, e stands for epsilon and E stands for eta. The NT Greek word for "a will" is thelEma, meaning a desire or a want; and the NT Greek verb "to will" is thelein, used in Romans 7, meaning to desire or to want.

The context of Romans 7 fits very well with this meaning of "thelein" as wanting, contrasted with poiein, meaning to make or do.

Do you have a refutation you would like to offer for my denotation of "will" as desire/want and "to will" as to desire/want when used in scripture. Do you have an example where they have a different meaning than the one I am seeing in Romans 7 ?

Should we not all agree to use this definition of "will" when speaking theologically of a "free will" ?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#10
Undoubtedly words can have a semantic range, and only one of the meanings within that range may be applicable in one particular context. I agree. However, there are places where the meanings of these terms are made clear.

For instance, Romans 7 defines will for us. Will is explained their as being desire, and Romans 7 makes it clear that one can genuinely will something without being able to perform what one is willing. Therefore, we can say that biblically, will does not include doing what is willed. Inability to do what is willed in no way constrains one's genuine ability to nevertheless will that thing.

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want/will, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want,/will I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire/will to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want/will, but the evil I do not want /will is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want/will ,it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want/will to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Clearly, the Bible does not say that our will is constrained, but that out actions are constrained by the weakness of our flesh habituated to sin.

So, biblically "the will" is the desires or wants; and "to will" is to desire or want. Willing precedes doing, and being able to will is not negated by any limitations placed on the ability to perform that which is willed.

This is why Jesus tells us that deliberately willing/desiring to commit a particular sin makes us culpable for that sin, even if we do not carry it out.

PS. "If" was not one of the words on my list. If you would like to discuss the biblical definition of "if", I suggest a new thread, and I may join in there..
Come let us reason this out.

You are saying that Paul as apostle was unable to do what he willed.
As apostle when he willed to good he did evil
you saying he was [as apostle] captive to sin.

How then could he preach that sin shall no more have dominion over you?

Your whole premise is wrong.

Paul was speaking about his life as Saul of Tarsus under the law. He thought he was doing good killing all the Christians but actually he was doing evil.

" Wretched man that I am! who will deliver me from this body of death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ ...."

Romans 8 speaks about our life in the Spirit.
 
Jan 18, 2024
51
13
8
#12
Do you really want to reason together or are you looking for a debate? I do have a question for you. Who did God create on the 6th day and who did God create on the 8th day. No this is not a trick question.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,984
973
113
44
#13
The NT was initially written in all capitals with no spaces and no punctuation. It was later written in miniscules. Transliterated into Roman script, e stands for epsilon and E stands for eta. The NT Greek word for "a will" is thelEma, meaning a desire or a want; and the NT Greek verb "to will" is thelein, used in Romans 7, meaning to desire or to want.

The context of Romans 7 fits very well with this meaning of "thelein" as wanting, contrasted with poiein, meaning to make or do.

Do you have a refutation you would like to offer for my denotation of "will" as desire/want and "to will" as to desire/want when used in scripture. Do you have an example where they have a different meaning than the one I am seeing in Romans 7 ?

Should we not all agree to use this definition of "will" when speaking theologically of a "free will" ?
I honestly don't like the term "freewill", and do not believe that it even exist. Not in the way many seem to think about it anyway. We are slaves of sin, or slaves to righteousness through Him. We are slaves to the flesh or to the Spirit, there is no "free" will in a literal sense. We're always a slave to one nature or the other.

No that I got that out, and thank you for humoring me, I do of course believe we have choice. That's what we think of as "free will", and although I hate the term "freewill", I think that it's obvious from the whole of scripture that we all have choice, and are warned and encouraged, warned not to do what's wrong and encouraged to DO what glorifies our King, which can only be done by His power anyway, so He gets all the glory no matter which way it's flipped!!!!

Was really just adding my personal viewpoint on the word "Freewill", I wasn't really trying to correct, argue, or teach you/anyone at all, I just thought your comment was a good one to attach it to. Thanks and have a great day.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#14
Come let us reason this out.

You are saying that Paul as apostle was unable to do what he willed.
As apostle when he willed to good he did evil
you saying he was [as apostle] captive to sin.

How then could he preach that sin shall no more have dominion over you?

Your whole premise is wrong.

Paul was speaking about his life as Saul of Tarsus under the law. He thought he was doing good killing all the Christians but actually he was doing evil.

" Wretched man that I am! who will deliver me from this body of death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ ...."

Romans 8 speaks about our life in the Spirit.
Hi, Evmur. This thread is looking for biblically based definitions of the listed terms. Unless your post provides a suggested definition of one of those terms, you haven't even made it into the pitch, let alone to first base, and you are off topic.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#15
theologically speaking, one's will is bound to one's nature.
Undoubtedly, our will is part of our nature. but that does not define what will is. many things can be bound to a wall, but noting that truth does nothing to define what paint is. an angel"s will is bound to the angel's nature; a devil's will is bound to a devil's nature; an eagle's will is bound to an eagle's nature; God's will is bound to God's nature. What do all their wills have in common? Their wills desire things.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#16
I honestly don't like the term "freewill", and do not believe that it even exist. Not in the way many seem to think about it anyway. We are slaves of sin, or slaves to righteousness through Him. We are slaves to the flesh or to the Spirit, there is no "free" will in a literal sense. We're always a slave to one nature or the other.

No that I got that out, and thank you for humoring me, I do of course believe we have choice. That's what we think of as "free will", and although I hate the term "freewill", I think that it's obvious from the whole of scripture that we all have choice, and are warned and encouraged, warned not to do what's wrong and encouraged to DO what glorifies our King, which can only be done by His power anyway, so He gets all the glory no matter which way it's flipped!!!!

Was really just adding my personal viewpoint on the word "Freewill", I wasn't really trying to correct, argue, or teach you/anyone at all, I just thought your comment was a good one to attach it to. Thanks and have a great day.
Hi, Jimbone. The Bible uses the term free will, to mean an offering that a person freely desired to offer . It was not compulsory. It was voluntary. The desire was not imposed upon them in any way by anyone. They chose to entertain the desire and nurture the desire.

You haven't defined what "will" means, or what "free" means, and yet you are expressing the opinion that "free will" does not exist, even though there were "free will offerings" in the OT, so it's a biblical term. And you are expressing the opinion that being a slave must somehow negate freedom for the slaves will. That methodology seems like putting the cart before the horse.

What some men think of as free will is of some interest, but has no bearing on what God thinks/says the will is, and what a "free will" must be if one accepts God"s meaning of will. Do you have an alternative biblically-based definition of will to add to the thread? The thread is looking for biblically-based definitions of the listed controversial terms. Men's opinions about what these terms should mean can be found in a myriad of other threads. This thread is looking for God's definitions of the listed terms.

Thanks.




go
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#17
Do you really want to reason together or are you looking for a debate? I do have a question for you. Who did God create on the 6th day and who did God create on the 8th day. No this is not a trick question.
Hi, Kenneth. I am looking for clarity on the biblical meaning of the listed terms as God uses them in scripture. Is there a text where will does not mean want/desire?
If you can show the relevance of your question to the OP, I will gladly try to answer. As things stand, it seems off topic.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#18
Come, let us reason calmly together.

There are a lot of words thrown at our screens making claims about the following terms. It would seem wise to first of all settle on some biblical definitions of those terms before making bold unfounded assertions about them. Can anyone give biblically sound definitions of these terms with biblical texts to back up those definitions?

1. the will.
2. to will
3. a free will
4. a bound will
5. to be sovereign
6. to predetermine
7. elect

If anyone cannot offer a biblical definition of these, should that person be confidently spouting doctrine about them?
Boule-Thelema-eklektoi--are you a Calvinist? Not being facetious.