The meaning of salvation

[ForestGreenCook]

And I suggest to you that you believe your statement wherein you said that Scripture must harmonize

It does actually. Peter made both statements; those who had accepted Christ and those who would accept Christ

I mean does it hurt that much to refuse to see that both statements were made in the same letter? You choose to only accept the first one


9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

What part of God is patient because he wants everyone to repent is past your understanding?

I am trying to see where you are determining that Peter is speaking to all humanity. Can you pin that to me in a more specific scripture?

 

[Niki7]

You are claiming that the natural man, before he has been born again choose to be born again, and that thought will not harmonize with Eph 2. God quickens people to a new spiritual life when they are still dead in their sins. They cannot choose to be born again spiritually, when they are still dead spiritually.

Oh you bet I am. You can twist scripture any way you want. The Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers in order to get them to choose to be saved.

Calvinism is one of the worst cultish type beliefs Christianity is sad to say exists.

 

[Chester]

I suggest to you, that you keep in mind that all scriptures must harmonize, before you can understand the truth.

You are taking 2 Peter out of context. You must first establish who Peter is speaking to, and it is "to them that has obtained like precious faith" (2 Pet 1:1).

If you use a concordance, Strong's says that "perish=death & death=separation

Peter is reminding them of God's promise of their eternal inheritance, but is longsuffering, even including himself by using the word "us-ward, not willing that any (of us) should separate ourselves from God's fellowship by committing a sin, but that we all should come to repentance.

I am a bit confused by you saying I am taking this verse out of context. I simply quoted the verse and did not even make a comment on it?

 

[Chester]

I suggest to you, that you keep in mind that all scriptures must harmonize, before you can understand the truth.
.

Yes, I agree that all Scriptures harmonize. . .

But the approach one takes is very important:
(1) A person can decide what their doctrines are and then go to Scriptures to harmonize the Scriptures with one's doctrine
or (2) A person can study all the applicable Scriptures in their context - and then come up with doctrine from that.

I think method #2 is the correct approach: as with this method the interpreter is free to honestly look at each verse and the intended meaning when the author wrote it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ephesians 1:4,5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself . . . "

The word "predestinated" here means "to mark out the boundaries ahead of time." I see this simply as that God before the foundation of the world marked out the boundaries of what the church would be: that is - they would be his sons and daughters, and he would make them blameless (by forgiveness through the blood).

The object of the "choosing" and "predestined" here is always plural: that is = a group of people - the church.

God predestined or chose the church to be holy, blameless, and to be his sons and daughters. (To me that seems like a wonderful, gracious, loving plan!).

Now today when an individual chooses (believes) in Jesus Christ, he becomes a part of that church - God's plan of predestination.

Calvinism has made "predestination" into something primarily about individuals (rather than a plural group) and about getting to heaven or hell (rather than about being sons/daughters of the King!)

Although I am not a follower of John Calvin, people on this forum accuse me of being his follower.

You are correct in claiming that the elect is the church. Most of the new testament books are letters to the churches instructing them in the doctrine of Christ.

The church is depicted in the scriptures to be the household of Jacob/Israel, which is spiritual Israel.

Most of spiritual Israel was disobedient to God, and God punished them by blinding their eye's to understand Christ's doctrine (Zeph 3:11-13) but God left in the mist of them a remnant that he has revealed the knowledge of the doctrine of Christ.

This harmonizes with Ezk 10, especially verse 10. The larger outer wheel representing blinded household of Jacob/Israel, and the smaller inner wheel representing the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel

This also harmonizes with the two gates in Matt 7. The outer wheel is represented by the wide gate, and the strait gate representing smaller inner wheel.

All of his elect people make up the sum total of the church, whom God gave to his Son to redeem them from their sins, and give them his promise of an eternal inheritance of heaven.

The church is Jesus kingdom on earth which he reigns over from his throne in heaven, and has promised to come back and raise it up at the last day.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am a bit confused by you saying I am taking this verse out of context. I simply quoted the verse and did not even make a comment on it?

Sorry Chester, my 89 year old mind probably got you confused with someone else.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And I suggest to you that you believe your statement wherein you said that Scripture must harmonize

It does actually. Peter made both statements; those who had accepted Christ and those who would accept Christ

I mean does it hurt that much to refuse to see that both statements were made in the same letter? You choose to only accept the first one


9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

What part of God is patient because he wants everyone to repent is past your understanding?

I am trying to follow your reasoning, but could you direct me to the scripture that makes you think that Peter is talking to the unborn spiritually?

I do not know what version of the bible you study from, but the version I study from has the word "us-ward" indicating that Peter is including himself in verse 9.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Oh you bet I am. You can twist scripture any way you want. The Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers in order to get them to choose to be saved.

Calvinism is one of the worst cultish type beliefs Christianity is sad to say exists.

I try to furnish scripture backup with my statements. It would help me to better understand your viewpoint if you could do the same.

 

[Chester]

Sorry Chester, my 89 year old mind probably got you confused with someone else.

You are 89! Very sharp for that age! God bless you!

 

[Niki7]

I am trying to see where you are determining that Peter is speaking to all humanity. Can you pin that to me in a more specific scripture?

That would be where he states that God wants all of mankind to come to salvation

Not sure why you seem to either gloss over that or understand the words having a different meaning then

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

not ANYONE to perish

that's it for me. you say you are not a Calvinist, but by definition, what you say you believe, fits that moniker quite nicely

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That would be where he states that God wants all of mankind to come to salvation

Not sure why you seem to either gloss over that or understand the words having a different meaning then



not ANYONE to perish

that's it for me. you say you are not a Calvinist, but by definition, what you say you believe, fits that moniker quite nicely

It is no wonder that there are so many conflicting scriptures on this form, because men have come up with so many versions of the bible to try and word them to fit the theories they have been taught.

I use only the original KJV and in Rev 22:18-19 says for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall shall add unto him the plagues that are written this book And that if any man shall take away from the words of the book of the prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

My bible says concerning 2 Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In your response to me, you have exchanged the word "any" to "anyone" which changes the meaning of the word to include people other than those of Peter's audience of like precious faith (2 Pet 1:1). Also you have taken away the word "us-ward" which includes Peter as a part of the "any".

It is no wonder that we have difficulty in having an honest discussion concerning the harmonizing of the scriptures.

 

[Niki7]

It is no wonder that we have difficulty in having an honest discussion concerning the harmonizing of the scriptures.

oh the irony

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, I agree that all Scriptures harmonize. . .

But the approach one takes is very important:
(1) A person can decide what their doctrines are and then go to Scriptures to harmonize the Scriptures with one's doctrine
or (2) A person can study all the applicable Scriptures in their context - and then come up with doctrine from that.

I think method #2 is the correct approach: as with this method the interpreter is free to honestly look at each verse and the intended meaning when the author wrote it.

I very much agree, that scripture proves scripture. The KJV is my only source of study, along with a concordance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

One must call upon the name of the Lord. One must accept Jesus' Atonement as payment in full and ask Him to be their Lord and Savior. Open your heart's door today, dear friends. All have been born in sin, but salvation is available to whosoever will humbly come.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Corinthians 6:
1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

It is sad that you still believe in the old law of works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ephesians 2:8-9

Respectfully Magenta, don't you believe the "FAITH" in this scripture has reference to the faith of Christ Jesus, in considering Gal 2:16?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think you explained it pretty well.
There's a common misconception that anytime the word saved is used, it is applied, rather misapplied to eternal salvation from the wages of sin, death in hell.

I posted Matthew 24 earlier, for instance.
Jesus is speaking of His second coming and believers who endure the tribulation until He returns.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The context is clear, yet many will teach that hardships, good works, endurance are salvation requirements for heaven. Sometimes they will put Jesus in there somewhere, but what they teach are a works based salvation in whom the object of faith is self.

The gospel of John makes it extremely clear that faith/ believing must be only in Jesus apart from any of our own works. Salvation and our Savior is the theme of that gospel written not only to believers, but to the lost hell bound world so they too can be saved.


31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 20

I appreciate your support of the doctrine of Christ.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Brilliant !!

And John 10:26-29 tells us who can and cannot believe.

 

[Magenta]

Respectfully Magenta, don't you believe the "FAITH" in this scripture has reference to the faith of Christ Jesus, in considering Gal 2:16?

Not in consideration of 1 John 5:4.

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

 

[oyster67]

It is sad that you still believe in the old law of works.

Receiving Jesus' atonement is not the "old law of works". Your statements are blatantly odd and deceptive.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Receiving Jesus' atonement is not the "old law of works". Your statements are blatantly odd and deceptive.

Christ's atonement on the cross, for only those that his Father gave him, was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.