Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

Interesting theological question-

The difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation and theological debate. The Greek word for "foreknew" is "προέγνω" (proegnō), which means "to know beforehand."

In the context of Romans 8:29, the phrase "those whom He foreknew" refers to a group of people whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The question is whether God's foreknowledge refers to His knowledge of future events or His intimate knowledge of individuals.

Some argue that God's foreknowledge is based on His knowledge of future events, specifically, His knowledge of who will respond positively to the gospel.

This view is known as the prescient view. Others argue that God's foreknowledge is based on His intimate knowledge of individuals, specifically, His decision to set His love upon them. This view is known as the Augustinian or Calvinistic view.

The prescient view suggests that the ultimate deciding factor in our salvation is us, and God chooses us for salvation only after knowing how we will respond to His gospel. The Augustinian view, on the other hand, makes the Lord the final, decisive agent in salvation, and His choice establishes who will believe and who will not.

In conclusion, the difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation and theological debate. The interpretation hinges on whether God's foreknowledge refers to His knowledge of future events or His intimate knowledge of individuals.

Correct?

Nothing is ever a matter of interpretation.

Either God's foreknowledge derives from His omniscience or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then we are left with option number 2. Or, we go with option 3 which is both options 1 and 2 are partially correct. His foreknowledge is His intimate knowledge of believers and knowing who are believers is derived from His omniscience.

 

[Johann]

To "wash away evil" would require of us to learn sound doctrine on a steady basis, as it progressively replaces more and more wrong thinking that we acquired while growing up in the world system.

The Baptism of the Spirit washes away sin, not evil. For to wash away evil? That requires taking our wrong thinking to a cross and replacing it with sound doctrinal understanding... The transforming of our mind.

grace and peace ...................

Correct-

The assertion that baptism washes away "evil" rather than sin is not supported by the biblical evidence. The Bible clearly teaches that baptism is connected to the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit, not the eradication of moral evil

Here are key scriptural passages that connect baptism to the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

Acts 22:16: "Now why do you delay? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
Romans 6:3-4: "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

None of these verses imply that baptism removes anything other than sins. Therefore, the claim that baptism washes away evil is not substantiated by the biblical data.
Instead, the Bible presents baptism as a means of entering into a relationship with God through the forgiveness of sins and the receipt of the Holy Spirit

. Evil, however, is addressed through the ongoing transformation/sanctification of the heart brought about by the Holy Spirit within the believer.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Nothing is ever a matter of interpretation.

Either God's foreknowledge derives from His omniscience or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then we are left with option number 2. Or, we go with option 3 which is both options 1 and 2 are partially correct. His foreknowledge is His intimate knowledge of believers and knowing who are believers is derived from His omniscience.

Or 4...God is beyond finding out.

 

[Johann]

Nothing is ever a matter of interpretation.

Either God's foreknowledge derives from His omniscience or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then we are left with option number 2. Or, we go with option 3 which is both options 1 and 2 are partially correct. His foreknowledge is His intimate knowledge of believers and knowing who are believers is derived from His omniscience.

It is not easy-I have to admit.

Firstly, let's define the terms:
Foreknowledge (próginōskō) in Greek refers to knowing beforehand or having advanced information about something.

Omniscience describes the ability to know everything without limitation.
Secondly, let's analyze the proposed options:

Option 1: God's foreknowledge derives solely from His omniscience.
According to this position, God knows everything, and His foreknowledge is simply an aspect of His omniscience. There isn't any explicit mention of this particular relationship between foreknowledge and omniscience in the Bible. However, the assumption that God possesses infinite knowledge aligns well with the concept of omniscience.

Option 2: God's foreknowledge does not derive from His omniscience.
This position proposes that God's foreknowledge exists independently of His omniscience. Such a notion contradicts the traditional understanding of God's attributes, which typically includes omniscience. Moreover, the absence of any supporting biblical evidence renders Option 2 less plausible.
Option 3: God's foreknowledge partly derives from His omniscience and partly from His intimate knowledge of believers.

This position combines elements of Options 1 and 2, acknowledging that God's foreknowledge stems from both His omniscience and His intimate knowledge of believers. Although the Bible does not explicitly state this combination, it allows for the possibility that God's foreknowledge arises from both His omniscience and His special concern for His chosen ones.

Thirdly, let's consider the Hebrew and Greek terminology:
The Greek term próginōskō appears in Romans 8:29, where it is translated as "foreknew".
The Hebrew term 'ydāʻ in Jeremiah 1:5 signifies the act of creating or fashioning something intricate or complex.

Fourthly, let's summarize the exegetical findings:
The Bible does not explicitly state that God's foreknowledge derives either solely from His omniscience or from another source.

A combination of God's omniscience and His intimate knowledge of believers provides a possible explanation for God's foreknowledge.

The Greek term próginōskō and the Hebrew term 'ydāʻ do not inherently indicate that God's foreknowledge derives exclusively from His omniscience.

Therefore, although the Bible does not explicitly endorse Option 3, it leaves room for considering the possibility that God's foreknowledge partly derives from His omniscience and partly from His intimate knowledge of believers.
J.

 

[Johann]

Or 4...God is beyond finding out.

Brilliant-His ways past finding out-knowing the end from the beginning.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Brilliant-His ways past finding out-knowing the end from the beginning.
J.

We presume much in our consideration of God. Well said the Psalmist...what is man, that Thou art mindful of him?

 

[Johann]

We presume much in our consideration of God. Well said the Psalmist...what is man, that Thou art mindful of him?

Or-

Job 11:7 - "Can you fathom the depths of God or discover the limits of the Almighty?"

Isaiah 40:28 - "His understanding no one can fathom."

Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

Psalm 147:5 - "His understanding is infinite."

These verses emphasize the incomprehensible nature of God's understanding and knowledge, highlighting that it surpasses human capacity for full comprehension. The passages convey the idea that God's wisdom and understanding are beyond human measure, reinforcing the notion that no one can fully grasp the depths of God

The Hebrew word for "fathom" in these verses conveys the idea of measuring or comprehending something to its full extent, further emphasizing the limitlessness of God's understanding

In summary, these biblical references affirm the unfathomable nature of God's wisdom and understanding, underscoring that human beings cannot fully comprehend the depths of God.

Shalom Achi/brother-peace to you and family.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Or-

Job 11:7 - "Can you fathom the depths of God or discover the limits of the Almighty?"

Isaiah 40:28 - "His understanding no one can fathom."

Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

Psalm 147:5 - "His understanding is infinite."

These verses emphasize the incomprehensible nature of God's understanding and knowledge, highlighting that it surpasses human capacity for full comprehension. The passages convey the idea that God's wisdom and understanding are beyond human measure, reinforcing the notion that no one can fully grasp the depths of God

The Hebrew word for "fathom" in these verses conveys the idea of measuring or comprehending something to its full extent, further emphasizing the limitlessness of God's understanding

In summary, these biblical references affirm the unfathomable nature of God's wisdom and understanding, underscoring that human beings cannot fully comprehend the depths of God.

Shalom Achi/brother-peace to you and family.
Johann.

A mighty blow to overinflated egos

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

So much for keeping it simple. Your faith is tested by trials. There is not such thing as a faith that is not real. Your either have faith or you don't. Trials reveal whether you have it or not. Faith doesn't have to be purified because it comes form the word. Rom.10:17

What you said, "faith is tested by fire" is incorrect. Own your mistakes.

yes there is, by Grace you where saved to do Good works.

Faith without works is dead.

Because the wages for sin is death.

You never had the spirit come upon you if you deny works. But you still could have had faith.

 

[Johann]

We presume much in our consideration of God. Well said the Psalmist...what is man, that Thou art mindful of him?

Your comment, "Well said the Psalmist...what is man, that Thou art mindful of him," beautifully resonates with Psalm 8:4, which indeed expresses the humble recognition of our finite nature in light of God's infinite greatness.

A thoughtful response to this insight could be:"Your observation is spot-on. Psalm 8:4 captures the essence of our contemplation of God, reminding us that we are but creatures, yet God deems us worthy of His attention and care. This verse encourages us to remain grounded in our understanding of ourselves and to acknowledge our place in the grand scheme of things, while still marveling at the wonder of God's presence in our lives."

Correct-we "presume" a tad too much.
J.

 

[Genez]

Nothing is ever a matter of interpretation.

Either God's foreknowledge derives from His omniscience or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then we are left with option number 2. Or, we go with option 3 which is both options 1 and 2 are partially correct. His foreknowledge is His intimate knowledge of believers and knowing who are believers is derived from His omniscience.

The Big question that seems to be never asked?

How can an omniscient God create all our souls and allow for the freedom to believe, or reject?

How could that be possible?

 

[Johann]

yes there is, by Grace you where saved to do Good works.

Faith without works is dead.

Because the wages for sin is death.

You never had the spirit come upon you if you deny works. But you still could have had faith.

Hmm-


The assertion raises a few points that require clarification and analysis:
The use of "spirit" without specifying which Spirit is meant. In Christianity, the Holy Spirit plays a significant role in the spiritual life of believers.

The implication that denying works automatically disqualifies one from experiencing the Holy Spirit.

The suggestion that faith and the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive, which is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament.

Let's examine these points more closely:

Without specifying which Spirit is referred to, it becomes difficult to assess the validity of the assertion. However, assuming that the Holy Spirit is meant, the statement lacks clarity because the Bible does not present a scenario where denial of works necessarily excludes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Denial of works does not automatically exclude one from experiencing the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that faith and the Holy Spirit are distinct but complementary facets of the Christian life. For example, Galatians 5:22 lists faith alongside the fruit of the Holy Spirit, indicating that faith and the Holy Spirit coexist in the life of a believer.

The assertion implies that faith and the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive, which is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament. Faith and the Holy Spirit are presented as separate entities but essential components of the Christian life. For instance, Ephesians 1:13-14 mentions faith and the Holy Spirit in conjunction, saying, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit..."
To conclude, the assertion raises several points requiring clarification and reconsideration. Based on the teachings of the New Testament, faith and the Holy Spirit are distinct but complementary facets of the Christian life, and denial of works does not necessarily exclude one from experiencing the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

The Big question that seems to be never asked?

How can an omniscient God create all our souls and allow for the freedom to believe, or reject?

How could that be possible?

An omniscient God creating all souls while allowing for free will is a complex topic that has been discussed extensively throughout history. The apparent conflict arises due to the following assumptions:

God is omniscient, meaning God knows everything, including the future.

Humans have free will, meaning they can make choices independently of external influences.

However, the compatibility of these two ideas is not inherently contradictory. One possible resolution suggests that God's knowledge is based on foreseen evidence rather than determining the outcomes themselves. This allows for human free will to operate without compromising God's omniscience.

Some theologians propose that God exists outside of time, enabling God to perceive all events simultaneously without influencing the choices made by humans. Others suggest that God's omniscience includes only actualized knowledge, leaving room for unrealized potentialities that correspond to genuine human freedom.
In summary, the idea of an omniscient God creating all souls while allowing for free will is not inherently contradictory. Various theological positions offer resolutions to this apparent paradox, maintaining the integrity of both divine omniscience and human free will.
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Hmm-


The assertion raises a few points that require clarification and analysis:
The use of "spirit" without specifying which Spirit is meant. In Christianity, the Holy Spirit plays a significant role in the spiritual life of believers.

The implication that denying works automatically disqualifies one from experiencing the Holy Spirit.

The suggestion that faith and the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive, which is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament.

Let's examine these points more closely:

Without specifying which Spirit is referred to, it becomes difficult to assess the validity of the assertion. However, assuming that the Holy Spirit is meant, the statement lacks clarity because the Bible does not present a scenario where denial of works necessarily excludes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Denial of works does not automatically exclude one from experiencing the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that faith and the Holy Spirit are distinct but complementary facets of the Christian life. For example, Galatians 5:22 lists faith alongside the fruit of the Holy Spirit, indicating that faith and the Holy Spirit coexist in the life of a believer.

The assertion implies that faith and the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive, which is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament. Faith and the Holy Spirit are presented as separate entities but essential components of the Christian life. For instance, Ephesians 1:13-14 mentions faith and the Holy Spirit in conjunction, saying, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit..."
To conclude, the assertion raises several points requiring clarification and reconsideration. Based on the teachings of the New Testament, faith and the Holy Spirit are distinct but complementary facets of the Christian life, and denial of works does not necessarily exclude one from experiencing the Holy Spirit.

the bible clearly states faith without works is dead

What you simply have to see is, you can still have faith without works, but God will not hear your prayers and send you into exile

Because the wages for sin is death.

 

[sawdust]

These passages suggest that trials and difficulties can serve to refine and strengthen one's faith, much like fire purifies gold

Fire does not purify gold, it reveals the gold in the ore. Trials do not refine and strengthen faith, they reveal faith in the soul. It is this erroneous understanding of the refining process that allows incorrect expressions to flourish to the detriment of Christian lives. Our words are important, as you have said previously.

Faith comes from the word, it does not need to be refined, it is already pure truth. It is a matter of trials revealing whether we have the real deal or a psuedo-faith which, is not faith at all. Faith is a system of thinking in truth to be applied to one's daily living. It is the mind of Christ operating within. It is there or it is not. This is why faith is assurance and conviction (Heb.11:1) because the power of faith comes from the word, not our will.

No amount of trials will give you faith. The only way to grow one's faith is to apply what you already have.

 

[Johann]

the bible clearly states faith without works is dead

What you simply have to see is, you can still have faith without works, but God will not hear your prayers and send you into exile

Because the wages for sin is death.

Brother-something is wrong in your philosophical viewpoint and interpretation of the holy Scriptures.

Allow me to offer alternative perspectives:
Complementarity of faith and works: Rather than viewing faith and works as mutually exclusive, we can understand them as complementary facets of the Christian life. Works flow naturally from authentic faith, but faith itself is not contingent upon works.

Grace and mercy: The Bible repeatedly affirms that God listens to the prayers of faithful believers regardless of their performance.

Prayer is a gift of grace, and God answers prayers based on His mercy and compassion, not on the basis of human achievement.

Misunderstanding of exile: The statement uses "exile" as a metaphorical punishment for unanswered prayers.

However, the Bible does not present exile as a consequence of unanswered prayers.

Instead, exile is mentioned as a historical event and a form of discipline imposed by God during specific periods of Israelite history.

In conclusion, responding to this statement requires addressing the misconceptions surrounding the relationship between faith, works, and prayer. By exploring alternative perspectives, we can maintain the integrity of the biblical teachings while fostering a healthy understanding of the dynamics between faith, works, and prayer.
J.

 

[Johann]

No amount of trials will give you faith.

This is not what I have said brother-

I will focus on the underlying principles of testing and refinement rather than directly engaging with the metaphor of fire.

First, the Bible presents trials as opportunities for growth and maturity, not as punitive measures designed to destroy faith. For example, James 1:2-4 encourages believers to count trials joyfully because they produce endurance, which leads to maturity and completeness.

Second, the Bible emphasizes that faith is tested and proven over time, not instantaneously.
For instance, Hebrews 11:1-3 describes faith as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen, and the evidence of things unseen.

This passage indicates that faith develops gradually through experiences, not solely through intellectual assent.

Third, the Bible highlights the importance of patience and perseverance in the development of faith. For example, Romans 5:3-5 explains that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. This progression demonstrates that faith is not revealed instantly but rather emerges through the crucible of adversity.

Fourth, the Bible acknowledges that trials can cause doubt and uncertainty, but it also offers guidance on how to navigate those challenges. For instance, Mark 4:14-20 compares the seed falling on rocky ground to those who hear the Word with joy but fall away when faced with trials.

This parable illustrates that faith is fragile and susceptible to erosion, but it also provides insight into how to cultivate deeper roots.

Finally, the Bible underscores the importance of community support in navigating trials. For example, Hebrews 10:24-25 exhorts believers to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "today," lest any of them be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. This verse highlights the significance of mutual support in sustaining faith amidst trials.

Based on these scriptural insights, I would argue that the statement comparing fire and trials oversimplifies the complexity of faith formation. While trials can indeed serve as catalysts for growth, they are not merely tests of faith but rather opportunities for deepening trust in God. Furthermore, the development of faith occurs gradually over time, through patient perseverance and the support of fellow believers. Therefore, instead of focusing exclusively on the refining aspect of trials, it is more beneficial to embrace the holistic perspective outlined in the Bible regarding the development of faith.

 

[sawdust]

yes there is, by Grace you where saved to do Good works.

Faith without works is dead.

Because the wages for sin is death.

You never had the spirit come upon you if you deny works. But you still could have had faith.

???????

Faith that is dead is non-existent faith. It means you don't have faith, you only think you have faith. This is exactly what I said. You either have faith or you don't. So no idea what you are arguing against especially as it wasn't even the crux of what I said.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Brother-something is wrong in your philosophical viewpoint and interpretation of the holy Scriptures.

Allow me to offer alternative perspectives:
Complementarity of faith and works: Rather than viewing faith and works as mutually exclusive, we can understand them as complementary facets of the Christian life. Works flow naturally from authentic faith, but faith itself is not contingent upon works.

Grace and mercy: The Bible repeatedly affirms that God listens to the prayers of faithful believers regardless of their performance.

Prayer is a gift of grace, and God answers prayers based on His mercy and compassion, not on the basis of human achievement.

Misunderstanding of exile: The statement uses "exile" as a metaphorical punishment for unanswered prayers.

However, the Bible does not present exile as a consequence of unanswered prayers.

Instead, exile is mentioned as a historical event and a form of discipline imposed by God during specific periods of Israelite history.

In conclusion, responding to this statement requires addressing the misconceptions surrounding the relationship between faith, works, and prayer. By exploring alternative perspectives, we can maintain the integrity of the biblical teachings while fostering a healthy understanding of the dynamics between faith, works, and prayer.
J.

The lord sent the Israelites into exile for not welcoming the lord.

Theese where Gods chosen people.

He said he would.not hear there prayers until they welcomed the lord.

If you deny to be baptised in water to be saved you are not welcoming the lord.

You will also be sent into exile.

The chances are tho if you deny water baptism to be saved.

Then you probably never welcomed the lord in the first place.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

???????

Faith that is dead is non-existent faith. It means you don't have faith, you only think you have faith. This is exactly what I said. You either have faith or you don't. So no idea what you are arguing against especially as it wasn't even the crux of what I said.

No it's a faith that sends you into exile until you welcome the lord