Predestination is misunderstood...

[Johann]

The lord sent the Israelites into exile for not welcoming the lord.

Theese where Gods chosen people.

He said he would.not hear there prayers until they welcomed the lord.

If you deny to be baptised in water to be saved you are not welcoming the lord.

You will also be sent into exile.

The chances are tho if you deny water baptism to be saved.

Then you probably never welcomed the lord in the first place.

Please be consistent in dialogue brother.

According to the New Testament, Spirit baptism refers to the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, which occurs simultaneously with faith in Christ. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit signifies the transformation of the believer into a child of God and marks the beginning of a new life in Christ

. Spirit baptism is not dependent on water baptism and can precede it

Scriptural references include:

Romans 8:9: "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

Galatians 3:27: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

1 Corinthians 12:13: "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body..."

Water Baptism
Water baptism is a visible symbol of the inner transformation brought about by Spirit baptism. It is an act of obedience to Christ and serves as a public declaration of faith in Him. Water baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation nor does it impart saving grace

Scriptural references include:

Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Acts 2:38: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.'"

Relationship Between Spirit and Water Baptism
While both Spirit and water baptism are distinct events, they are related in that water baptism is a physical manifestation of the spiritual reality of Spirit baptism. A person cannot be truly Spirit baptized unless they have confessed faith in Christ, but not everyone who is water baptized necessarily possesses the Holy Spirit

Summary
Spirit baptism and water baptism are two distinct events, although they are related in that water baptism is a visible representation of the internal reality of Spirit baptism. Spirit baptism occurs immediately upon faith in Christ, whereas water baptism is a subsequent action of obedience and public testimony. Both are integral aspects of the Christian life, but neither is a prerequisite for salvation.
J.

 

[Johann]

No it's a faith that sends you into exile until you welcome the lord

provide Scripture references re your statement.
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Please be consistent in dialogue brother.

According to the New Testament, Spirit baptism refers to the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, which occurs simultaneously with faith in Christ. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit signifies the transformation of the believer into a child of God and marks the beginning of a new life in Christ

. Spirit baptism is not dependent on water baptism and can precede it

Scriptural references include:

Romans 8:9: "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

Galatians 3:27: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

1 Corinthians 12:13: "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body..."

Water Baptism
Water baptism is a visible symbol of the inner transformation brought about by Spirit baptism. It is an act of obedience to Christ and serves as a public declaration of faith in Him. Water baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation nor does it impart saving grace

Scriptural references include:

Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Acts 2:38: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.'"

Relationship Between Spirit and Water Baptism
While both Spirit and water baptism are distinct events, they are related in that water baptism is a physical manifestation of the spiritual reality of Spirit baptism. A person cannot be truly Spirit baptized unless they have confessed faith in Christ, but not everyone who is water baptized necessarily possesses the Holy Spirit

Summary
Spirit baptism and water baptism are two distinct events, although they are related in that water baptism is a visible representation of the internal reality of Spirit baptism. Spirit baptism occurs immediately upon faith in Christ, whereas water baptism is a subsequent action of obedience and public testimony. Both are integral aspects of the Christian life, but neither is a prerequisite for salvation.
J.

Yup even the demons confessed Jesus was the son of God.

The demons screamed at Jesus, shouting, “Son of God, what do you want with us? Leave us alone! Have you come to torment us before the appointed time?”

 

[Johann]

Yup even the demons confessed Jesus was the son of God.

The demons screamed at Jesus, shouting, “Son of God, what do you want with us? Leave us alone! Have you come to torment us before the appointed time?”

I'll leave you be-this is futile and frankly, a waste of my time. Iron sharpens iron and can two walk together lest they agree?
J.

 

[sawdust]

No it's a faith that sends you into exile until you welcome the lord

I don't think you understand what faith is. Faith comes from the word, the preaching of truth. You seem to be confusing what one believes (an assent of one's will) as being faith.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Believing something is an action of our will. Faith requires Christ. No Christ (who is truth), no faith. Our faith grows through the knowledge of truth (Christ) not simply believing something to be true because we are fallible and what we believe may not be true. This is where trials come in to reveal that the faith we have is indeed the real deal and not a make believe faith of our imagining.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

provide Scripture references re your statement.
J.

I just did.
The lord sent the Israelites into exile for not welcoming the lord.

Theese where Gods chosen people.

He said he would.not hear there prayers until they welcomed the lord.

If you deny to be baptised in water to be saved you are not welcoming the lord.

You will also be sent into exile.

The chances are tho if you deny water baptism to be saved.

Then you probably never welcomed the lord in the first place.

I'll leave you be-this is futile and frankly, a waste of my time. Iron sharpens iron and can two walk together lest they agree?
J.

yes but some iron will blunt iron

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Looks to me like?
If you could first take off your Calvinist thinking cap?
Maybe we can have a dialogue.

Its like having a conversation with "Mr. Censorship."
It appears in part that was what it was designed to accomplish.

Instead of declaring yourself as infallible?
Maybe, saying you have been told that this is such. Or, told that is such?

You might learn something and escape the trap .....

If you are not a Calvinist? What are you?


grace and patience.....

I do not follow men or doctrines. I try my best to follow the word

Who said I was infallible? I never did

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.
As for me learning something? I
Am all ears. If you can tell me something that makes sense I will listen

Now do you have anything to say about
My post or did you just want to
Ignore it?

 

[Dino246]

Faith still has to be tested in fire,.there's no getting out of it.

Peter 1:7



7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

We can expect that our faith will be tested, but many people pass from this life without their faith being seriously tested, so your "no getting out of it" is not really valid.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You argue by putting words in my mouth I did not say, so you can have something to oppose.
Please, stop using me as your hand puppet.

Did I mention anything about the penalty for sin? Jesus bore that on the Cross.

The only penalty for sinning for the one who is a believer is losing the filling of the Spirit.

Then why would you keep
Posting a passage saying you can confess your smaller sin and be forgiven?

Do you have a problem? You just want to attack me or do you want to discuss the word?

 

[Johann]

I just did.
The lord sent the Israelites into exile for not welcoming the lord.

Theese where Gods chosen people.

He said he would.not hear there prayers until they welcomed the lord.

If you deny to be baptised in water to be saved you are not welcoming the lord.

You will also be sent into exile.

The chances are tho if you deny water baptism to be saved.

Then you probably never welcomed the lord in the first place.
yes but some iron will blunt iron

My goal is not to win arguments but to share the truth in love and help others grow in their faith.
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I don't think you understand what faith is. Faith comes from the word, the preaching of truth. You seem to be confusing what one believes (an assent of one's will) as being faith.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Believing something is an action of our will. Faith requires Christ. No Christ (who is truth), no faith. Our faith grows through the knowledge of truth (Christ) not simply believing something to be true because we are fallible and what we believe may not be true. This is where trials come in to reveal that the faith we have is indeed the real deal and not a make believe faith of our imagining.

where the Israelites practicing faith before they where exiled, ?

Answer yes

Where people moved by the holy spirit, before they received the holy spirit, ?

answer yes

Did people walk with God and stil reject God,

answer yes

Did people walk with God, and God still put them to death.

answer yes.

So the answer is, it's possible to have faith that does not receive salvation

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

My goal is not to win arguments but to share the truth in love and help others grow in their faith.
J.

Well you've got a funny way of showing it.

 

[Dino246]

I just did.
The lord sent the Israelites into exile for not welcoming the lord.

No, the Israelites were sent into exile for continually committing sin and for following other gods.

He said he would.not hear there prayers until they welcomed the lord.

Prove it with Scripture.

If you deny to be baptised in water to be saved you are not welcoming the lord.
Again, prove it with Scripture.

You will also be sent into exile.

That's just hogwash. There is no Scripture to support your assertion.

 

[Johann]

Well you've got a funny way of showing it.

How so?
By responding and not reacting?

 

[Genez]

This is called justification

Adam was our Condemnation - First Adam.
Jesus is our Justification - Second Adam.

God does not have to do anything, God knows if our faith is real or not.

He will give us things to grow our faith. but to say God does not know??

God tests us for us to learn and to know what He does know.

For we will need to know why we will be evaluated by God as it will be done.
So, for that reason? God does need to test us.....


grace and peace ...........

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

How so?
By responding and not reacting?

giving out red herrings to people spending time quoting you.

Being insulting.

Being clever.

Not apologizing

Calling people trolls after you where told they had a disability.


Preaching a false doctrine.

Not accepting correction

Noooo your not being argumentive.

 

[Rufus]

An omniscient God creating all souls while allowing for free will is a complex topic that has been discussed extensively throughout history. The apparent conflict arises due to the following assumptions:

God is omniscient, meaning God knows everything, including the future.

Humans have free will, meaning they can make choices independently of external influences.

However, the compatibility of these two ideas is not inherently contradictory. One possible resolution suggests that God's knowledge is based on foreseen evidence rather than determining the outcomes themselves. This allows for human free will to operate without compromising God's omniscience.

Some theologians propose that God exists outside of time, enabling God to perceive all events simultaneously without influencing the choices made by humans. Others suggest that God's omniscience includes only actualized knowledge, leaving room for unrealized potentialities that correspond to genuine human freedom.
In summary, the idea of an omniscient God creating all souls while allowing for free will is not inherently contradictory. Various theological positions offer resolutions to this apparent paradox, maintaining the integrity of both divine omniscience and human free will.
J.

Well stated, brother, well stated! Using a Shakesperian analogy might help us to better understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and our free moral agency. The Bard famously said once:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts...

The full quote is much longer, of course. Not only is what Shakespeare explicitly stated important, but what he also implied is equally important. If all the people of this world are merely "actors" on the world stage -- all dutifully playing our parts -- then who is directing this play? Who is producing this play? Who wrote the script?

Moreover, since we all play our parts, don't we play them willingly? Does anyone from without force us to play our parts?

Even though the Bard was not a particularly religious person, let alone a Christian, he had a decent grasp on reality. It appears he had a sense that someone greater than us "actors" was calling the shots on the world stage. The quote implies a sovereign "script writer" working with a willing cast. Now just how does the human will and divine will work when they intersect -- well, that we'll never understand. That's above our finite pay grade.

 

[Johann]

giving out red herrings to people spending time quoting you.

Being insulting.

Being clever.

Not apologizing

Calling people trolls after you where told they had a disability.


Preaching a false doctrine.

Not accepting correction

Noooo your not being argumentive.

I'll let the other members deal with you-02.27 AM here in South Africa-and I'm done with you.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

We can expect that our faith will be tested, but many people pass from this life without their faith being seriously tested, so your "no getting out of it" is not really valid.

Defending a false teacher and disagreeing for disagreeing is not wise.

8 Reasons God Doesn’t Hear Your Prayers
Prayer
Jan 20
Written By Costi Hinn

Growing up most parents tell their kids that God hears every prayer. When it comes to prayers, you seemingly just “throw” one out there and the “Big Guy upstairs” will put it on the list.
Like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, the one-liner that God hears every prayer is a lie found nowhere in the Bible. In fact, there are over a dozen examples of people and prayers that God completely ignores.
Here are 8 that can help you think deeply about your own prayer life:


1: You ignore the poor.
Proverbs 21:13 says, “One who shuts his ear to the outcry of the poor will also call out himself, and not be answered.” In no uncertain terms, God takes our care of the poor very seriously. Are you knowingly and pompously ignoring the cries of the needy? Your prayer life could suffer.


2: You doubt that God can give you wisdom.
James 1:5-7 is one of the only passages in the New Testament that actually does say that faith can get you what you want, as long as wisdom is what you want. James writes,

“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that person ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,”​

When asking God for wisdom, doubt can get in the way of you receiving an answer.

3: You’re being prideful.
James 4:6 shows the opposition of God when the proud refuse to be humble saying, “But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
Pride is the antithesis of a thriving prayer life.


4: You are unjustly violent.
Isaiah 1:15 records the word of the Lord regarding unjust violence saying, “So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you offer many prayers, I will not be listening. Your hands are covered with blood.”
That is the God of the Bible, purposely ignoring prayers.


5: You’re insensitive to your wife.
1 Peter 3:7 is one of the most frightening passages for husbands as it speaks of the consequences of dishonoring your wife saying, “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”
When a husband is not showing honor to his wife, his prayers are bouncing right back down off the ceiling.



6: You have selfish motives.
James 4:3 says, “You ask and do not receive, because you ask with the wrong motives, so that you may spend what you request on your pleasures.”
The wrong motives can impact your prayer life in such a way that God doesn’t give you what you’re asking for, no matter how much you beg.


7: You love your sin so much.
Psalm 66:18 says, “If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear…”
The Psalmist knew that God does not tolerate wickedness as His roommate in the human heart.


8: You mistreat God’s people.
Micah 3:2-5 is a passage containing vivid imagery of what God thinks of those who mistreat His people, including false prophets and leaders. When you mess with God’s precious saints, He does not hear you even when you cry out. The prophet Micah warned:

“You who hate good and love evil,
Who tear off their skin from them
And their flesh from their bones,
Who eat the flesh of my people,
Strip off their skin from them,
Smash their bones,
And chop them up as for the pot,
And as meat in a cauldron!”
Then they will cry out to the Lord,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds.”​

— Micah 3:2-5
Pray Like King David
How do you make sure God is hearing your prayers? Repent, confess, be humble, and He will hear you. Read Psalm 51 and see how David prayed after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and killed her husband. Even after all that sin, God heard his prayer because he came to God with a humble heart.
May we all do the same.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'll let the other members deal with you-02.27 AM here in South Africa-and I'm done with you.

Yep your pride has no mercy