Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

Yes,

Justification is a legal term. It literally means declared righteous or innocent.

If we were righteous in our selves?
There would be no need for Justification.

We needed to be legally declared Justified because we are not righteous in ourselves.

We will first be manifested as having our own righteous when we receive our glorious resurrection bodies.
Then.... no more need for justification.

grace and peace ...........

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

But intelligently, logically and biblically refuting fatalism goes a long way in doing just that.

no, all it does is show predestination as something to be scared to talk about, for fear of being jumped on, and show predestination as a bad thing.

 

[DJT_47]

Is there a difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew?

God is all knowing so I don't think that's an issue

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

But regeneration (new birth) precedes faith, for the dead have no spiritual ability to do anything pleasing to God, which would include believing on Him through Christ.

This is wrong

in order for this to happen God would have to remove the penalty of sin,

God does not make people alive before they Receive his grace in faith

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So just to be sure, you dismiss a prophet of God, (Samuel) telling saul the spirit will change you for better good, as having nothing to do with the spirit changing sauls faith ?. Or the spirit predestinating Saul to be changed.

I get straight that if saul had faith he is in heaven

if he did not he is in hades

he could not lose salvation because it’s a gift.,god does not go back on his word

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If we were righteous in our selves?
There would be no need for Justification.

Whch is why we need saved, and the purpose of the cross

We needed to be legally declared Justified because we are not righteous in ourselves.

We will first be manifested as having our own righteous when we receive our glorious resurrection bodies.
Then.... no more need for justification.

grace and peace ...........

I never stated otherwise

 

[Johann]

Is there a difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew?

I think the answer to this question has been dealt with?


The concept of foreknowledge is an important theological term in Christianity, particularly in the context of predestination and election. The Greek word for "foreknew" is "proginosko," which means "to know beforehand" or "to determine beforehand"

. In Romans 8:29, Paul writes, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" (ESV). The question of whether there is a difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation.

Calvinists interpret Romans 8:29 to mean that God set His heart upon (i.e., foreknew) certain individuals, whom He predestined or marked out to be saved

. They contend that God's foreknowledge is not simply knowledge of future events, but rather a pre-temporal regarding with divine favor

. In other words, God's foreknowledge is causative, meaning that it is God's foreknowledge that causes the predestination of certain individuals

Arminians, on the other hand, maintain that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel

. They argue that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge of future events, and that it is the individual's faith that is the cause of God's predestination

The meaning of "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is also related to the biblical characterization of election and the ground of God's knowledge

. The Bible teaches that God's foreknowledge of His elect connotes divine favor - God's electing love and saving purpose

. In other words, when God foreknows a person, He sets His love upon him

. God's foreknowledge is grounded in Himself and in His own determinations, and He is thus eternally omniscient

In summary, the difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation.

Calvinists believe that God's foreknowledge is causative and that He set His heart upon certain individuals, while Arminians believe that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge of future events and that it is the individual's faith that is the cause of God's predestination. Regardless of one's interpretation, the concept of foreknowledge is closely related to the doctrine of predestination and the biblical characterization of election.

I am having a deep discussion with my Calvinist brother and I don't know WHAT I am! Lol!
J.

 

[Johann]

This is wrong

in order for this to happen God would have to remove the penalty of sin,

God does not make people alive before they Receive his grace in faith

Yup-problematic brother-who is right?


The concept of regeneration preceding faith is a theological topic that has been debated within Christian theology, particularly in the context of predestination and the order of salvation. Here are some scripture references and discussions related to this topic:
John 6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." This verse is often cited in discussions about whether regeneration precedes faith

Ephesians 2:1: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins." This verse highlights the spiritual condition of individuals before regeneration, emphasizing the need for God's work to make them spiritually alive before they can trust in Christ as Savior

1 John 5:1: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." This verse connects belief with being born of God, suggesting a relationship between regeneration and faith

John 1:12-13: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." These verses emphasize that being born of God precedes belief in Christ

Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." This verse speaks to the role of regeneration in salvation

The debate over whether regeneration precedes faith or vice versa is often tied to theological perspectives such as Calvinism and Arminianism.

Calvinists typically argue that regeneration precedes faith, viewing it as a sovereign act of God that enables individuals to believe. On the other hand, Arminians may emphasize human responsibility in responding to God's call through faith.

Ultimately, while there are various interpretations and theological positions on this topic, these scripture references provide insight into the relationship between regeneration and faith within Christian doctrine.

Johann.

 

[Rufus]

Ohhh-I see--


The statement "regeneration (new birth) precedes faith, for the dead have no spiritual ability to do anything pleasing to God, which would include believing on Him through Christ" is a theological perspective held by some Christians. This view emphasizes the idea that regeneration is a sovereign work of God, whereby He imparts new life to a spiritually dead person, enabling them to respond to the gospel message with faith in Jesus Christ.

This perspective is based on passages such as Ephesians 2:1-5, which describes the spiritual condition of unbelievers as being dead in their trespasses and sins, and Colossians 2:13, which speaks of God making believers alive together with Christ. The idea is that regeneration is a necessary prerequisite for faith, as it is only through the impartation of new life that a person can respond to the gospel message with faith.

However, it is important to note that not all Christians hold this view, and there is some debate among theologians regarding the relationship between regeneration and faith.

Some argue that faith precedes regeneration, while others maintain that regeneration and faith occur simultaneously.

Ultimately, the relationship between regeneration and faith is a complex theological issue that requires careful consideration of various biblical passages and theological perspectives. While some Christians may hold the view that regeneration precedes faith, it is important to recognize that this is not the only perspective on this issue.
J.

Actually, I don't think it's all that complicated! Not at all. First of all, scripture does not portray the unregenerate as merely lame, blind or crippled. (Yes, we were all that plus a lot worse!) It ultimately portrays our former unregenerate state as being one of death! What ability does any physically dead person have? If you answer, "none", then what would make you think the spiritually dead have any spiritual ability?

Secondly, if Nicodemus could not see (understand the kingdom of God) unless he be born again, then what would make anyone think he would understand the Gospel of the Kingdom apart from the new birth?

Thirdly, Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a teacher of the Law, yet not understanding the new birth or its necessity. Have you ever wondered why Jesus did so? What specific teaching in the OT should Nicodemus have understood?

Fourthly, was Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must do something to perceive (understand) the kingdom of God, or was he telling him something must be done to him before he can "see" the kingdom of God. Also note the present tense in Jn 3:3! "No one can see the kingdom...". No one right here and right now can see the kingdom...unless he is born again.

Fifthly, I would call to your attention these NT passages and exhort you to pay close attention to the verb tenses.

John 6:47
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
NIV

"Believes" and "has" are both in the present tense. One would naturally think that if faith precedes eternal life, that only the future tense could have been used for "everlasting life". See also in the regard: Jn 3:36; 5;24; 6:54; 1Jn 5:12.

And,

John 11:25-26a
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die...
ESV

As you are probably aware (although I don't like to assume anything), there are three tenses to salvation: Past (justification, Present (sanctification), and Future (glorification). Of course, the future is when our salvation will finally and fully be consummated. In v.25, Jesus has the future tense in mind. Even "though he die" [physically], he will (or shall) live [in heaven]. But then in v.26, Jesus switches tenses because he's no longer talking about physical death but is concerned about spiritual life and death. What v.26 is saying is that "everyone who lives [spiritually] and believes in me shall never die [spiritually]". Here in this verse, we should take note of two important things: Once again, the present tenses of the verb "lives" and believes". But also, note the order of those verbs! Jesus does not have faith preceding living, does he!? No! He he most certainly does not. Life precedes faith, which is the logical and biblical order! I would suggest this is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.

 

[Johann]

Actually, I don't think it's all that complicated! Not at all. First of all, scripture does not portray the unregenerate as merely lame, blind or crippled. (Yes, we were all that plus a lot worse!) It ultimately portrays our former unregenerate state as being one of death! What ability does any physically dead person have? If you answer, "none", then what would make you think the spiritually dead have any spiritual ability?

Secondly, if Nicodemus could not see (understand the kingdom of God) unless he be born again, then what would make anyone think he would understand the Gospel of the Kingdom apart from the new birth?

Thirdly, Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a teacher of the Law, yet not understanding the new birth or its necessity. Have you ever wondered why Jesus did so? What specific teaching in the OT should Nicodemus have understood?

Fourthly, was Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must do something to perceive (understand) the kingdom of God, or was he telling him something must be done to him before he can "see" the kingdom of God. Also note the present tense in Jn 3:3! "No one can see the kingdom...". No one right here and right now can see the kingdom...unless he is born again.

Fifthly, I would call to your attention these NT passages and exhort you to pay close attention to the verb tenses.

John 6:47
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
NIV

"Believes" and "has" are both in the present tense. One would naturally think that if faith precedes eternal life, that only the future tense could have been used for "everlasting life". See also in the regard: Jn 3:36; 5;24; 6:54; 1Jn 5:12.

And,

John 11:25-26a
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die...
ESV

As you are probably aware (although I don't like to assume anything), there are three tenses to salvation: Past (justification, Present (sanctification), and Future (glorification). Of course, the future is when our salvation will finally and fully be consummated. In v.25, Jesus has the future tense in mind. Even "though he die" [physically], he will (or shall) live [in heaven]. But then in v.26, Jesus switches tenses because he's no longer talking about physical death but is concerned about spiritual life and death. What v.26 is saying is that "everyone who lives [spiritually] and believes in me shall never die [spiritually]". Here in this verse, we should take note of two important things: Once again, the present tenses of the verb "lives" and believes". But also, note the order of those verbs! Jesus does not have faith preceding living, does he!? No! He he most certainly does not. Life precedes faith, which is the logical and biblical order! I would suggest this is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.

As you are probably aware (although I don't like to assume anything), there are three tenses to salvation: Past (justification, Present (sanctification), and Future (glorification). Of course, the future is when our salvation will finally and fully be consummated. In v.25, Jesus has the future tense in mind. Even "though he die" [physically], he will (or shall) live [in heaven]. But then in v.26, Jesus switches tenses because he's no longer talking about physical death but is concerned about spiritual life and death. What v.26 is saying is that "everyone who lives [spiritually] and believes in me shall never die [spiritually]". Here in this verse, we should take note of two important things: Once again, the present tenses of the verb "lives" and believes". But also, note the order of those verbs! Jesus does not have faith preceding living, does he!? No! He he most certainly does not. Life precedes faith, which is the logical and biblical order! I would suggest this is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.

Your argument centers around the idea that regeneration precedes faith, and that the spiritually dead have no spiritual ability to believe. Here is an exegetical and biblical response to each point:
Scripture's portrayal of the unregenerate:You argue that scripture portrays the unregenerate as being dead, not merely lame, blind, or crippled. This is a valid point, as the Bible does use the metaphor of death to describe the spiritual condition of those who are separated from God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Greek word for "dead" in this context is "nekros," which means "lifeless" or "inanimate". This emphasizes the idea that the unregenerate are spiritually lifeless and unable to respond to God apart from His intervention.

Nicodemus and the new birth:You argue that Nicodemus could not understand the Gospel of the Kingdom apart from the new birth. This is supported by Jesus' words in John 3:3, where He tells Nicodemus that he must be born again to see the kingdom of God. The Greek word for "born again" is "anothen," which can also mean "from above". This emphasizes the idea that the new birth is a divine work of God, not something that can be achieved through human effort.

Jesus' chiding of Nicodemus: You ask why Jesus chided Nicodemus for not understanding the new birth or its necessity. This is a valid question, as Jesus' rebuke suggests that Nicodemus should have understood the concept of spiritual rebirth based on his knowledge of the Old Testament. While the Old Testament does not use the term "born again," it does contain references to spiritual renewal and regeneration (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Perceiving the kingdom of God: You ask whether Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must do something to perceive the kingdom of God or whether something must be done to him before he can "see" the kingdom of God.

This is an important distinction, as it emphasizes the idea that the new birth is a divine work of God that enables individuals to perceive and understand spiritual truth. The Greek word for "see" in John 3:3 is "eido," which can also mean "perceive" or "understand". This suggests that the new birth is necessary for individuals to grasp the reality of the kingdom of God.

Verb tenses and salvation: You cite several verses that use present tense verbs to describe the relationship between faith and eternal life. This is a valid point, as it emphasizes the idea that faith and eternal life are closely connected in the present moment. However, it is important to note that the Bible also speaks of faith as a past event (Ephesians 2:8-9) and as a future hope (1 Peter 1:3-5).

The Greek word for "faith" is "pistis," which can also mean "trust" or "belief". This suggests that faith is not merely a one-time event but an ongoing relationship of trust and dependence on God.
In conclusion, your argument that regeneration precedes faith is supported by biblical references to spiritual death and the new birth.

However, the relationship between faith and regeneration is complex and multifaceted, and the Bible speaks of faith in various tenses and contexts. Ultimately, the order of salvation is a theological issue that requires careful consideration of various biblical passages and theological perspectives. While some Christians may hold the view that regeneration precedes faith, it is important to recognize that this is not the only perspective on this issue.

Shalom brother
J.

 

[Cameron143]

God is all knowing so I don't think that's an issue

In one regard I agree. But in the matter of predestination and election I think it does. If the foreknowledge is about WHO, then it wasn't God using the knowledge concerning individuals as to whether they will or will not choose Him but all is based on God's sovereign choice.

 

[Johann]

In one regard I agree. But in the matter of predestination and election I think it does. If the foreknowledge is about WHO, then it wasn't God using the knowledge concerning individuals as to whether they will or will not choose Him but all is based on God's sovereign choice.

In the context of predestination and election, the concept of foreknowledge plays a significant role in understanding God's sovereign choice. Let's break down the statement comprehensively with verbs and Greek terminologies:

1. Foreknowledge and Predestination:
   • The Greek term for "foreknowledge" is "prognosis," which implies God's prior knowledge or foreordination.
   • When discussing predestination and election, the idea of foreknowledge is crucial in determining the basis of God's sovereign choice.
   • If foreknowledge pertains to WHO, it suggests that God's choice is not dependent on individuals' decisions but is rooted in His sovereign will.
2. God's Sovereign Choice:
   • The Greek term for "sovereign" is "despotes," indicating absolute authority and control.
   • In matters of predestination and election, the emphasis is on God's sovereignty in choosing individuals for salvation.
   • This implies that God's selection is not contingent upon human actions or choices but is based on His divine will and purpose.
3. Understanding Foreknowledge:
   • The verb "foreknow" in Greek is "proginosko," denoting God's prior knowledge or predetermined plan.
   • When applied to predestination, foreknowledge suggests that God's choice is not reactive but proactive, based on His omniscient understanding of all things.
   • This understanding aligns with the idea that God's foreknowledge encompasses His sovereign decision-making process in electing individuals for salvation.
4. Implications of Sovereign Choice:
   • The verb "choose" in Greek is "eklegomai," signifying a deliberate selection or picking out.
   • In the context of predestination and election, God's sovereign choice involves His intentional selection of individuals according to His divine purpose.
   • This underscores the idea that God's sovereignty transcends human will and actions, highlighting His supreme authority in determining those who will be saved.

By delving into the meanings of key verbs and Greek terminologies related to foreknowledge, sovereign choice, and predestination, we gain a deeper understanding of how these concepts interplay within the theological framework of God's divine plan for salvation. This comprehensive explanation sheds light on the intricate relationship between foreknowledge, sovereign choice, and God's overarching purpose in predestining individuals for redemption.

Very deep-
Johann.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I get straight that if saul had faith he is in heaven

if he did not he is in hades

he could not lose salvation because it’s a gift.,god does not go back on his word

it's clear that God rejected Saul. So we know God change Saul first before this happened


Samuel 13:9-14

New International Version



9 So he said, “Bring me the burnt offering and the fellowship offerings.” And Saul offered up the burnt offering. 10 Just as he finished making the offering, Samuel arrived, and Saul went out to greet him.
11 “What have you done?” asked Samuel.
Saul replied, “When I saw that the men were scattering, and that you did not come at the set time, and that the Philistines were assembling at Mikmash, 12 I thought, ‘Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not sought the Lord’s favor.’ So I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering.”
13 “You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord’s command.”

Then when re read on, Saul then went to seek mediums because God would no longer speak to him.

So it's obvious he was walking with God, and God rejected him.

Once again I'm reminding Saul was given faith not salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

it's clear that God rejected Saul.


Samuel 13:9-14

New International Version



9 So he said, “Bring me the burnt offering and the fellowship offerings.” And Saul offered up the burnt offering. 10 Just as he finished making the offering, Samuel arrived, and Saul went out to greet him.
11 “What have you done?” asked Samuel.
Saul replied, “When I saw that the men were scattering, and that you did not come at the set time, and that the Philistines were assembling at Mikmash, 12 I thought, ‘Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not sought the Lord’s favor.’ So I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering.”
13 “You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord’s command.”

Then when re read on, Saul then went to seeks mediums because God would no longer speak to him.

So it's obvious he was walking with God, and God rejected him.

Once again I'm reminding Saul was given faith not salvation.

Saul was rejected as king. Not salvation

 

[Cameron143]

I think the answer to this question has been dealt with?


The concept of foreknowledge is an important theological term in Christianity, particularly in the context of predestination and election. The Greek word for "foreknew" is "proginosko," which means "to know beforehand" or "to determine beforehand"

. In Romans 8:29, Paul writes, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" (ESV). The question of whether there is a difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation.

Calvinists interpret Romans 8:29 to mean that God set His heart upon (i.e., foreknew) certain individuals, whom He predestined or marked out to be saved

. They contend that God's foreknowledge is not simply knowledge of future events, but rather a pre-temporal regarding with divine favor

. In other words, God's foreknowledge is causative, meaning that it is God's foreknowledge that causes the predestination of certain individuals

Arminians, on the other hand, maintain that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel

. They argue that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge of future events, and that it is the individual's faith that is the cause of God's predestination

The meaning of "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is also related to the biblical characterization of election and the ground of God's knowledge

. The Bible teaches that God's foreknowledge of His elect connotes divine favor - God's electing love and saving purpose

. In other words, when God foreknows a person, He sets His love upon him

. God's foreknowledge is grounded in Himself and in His own determinations, and He is thus eternally omniscient

In summary, the difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation.

Calvinists believe that God's foreknowledge is causative and that He set His heart upon certain individuals, while Arminians believe that God's foreknowledge is simply knowledge of future events and that it is the individual's faith that is the cause of God's predestination. Regardless of one's interpretation, the concept of foreknowledge is closely related to the doctrine of predestination and the biblical characterization of election.

I am having a deep discussion with my Calvinist brother and I don't know WHAT I am! Lol!
J.

Right. I was just addressing the subject with someone who addressed me.

 

[Johann]

Right. I was just addressing the subject with someone who addressed me.

And may we not forget-

1. Let brotherly love continue (verse 1): This verse calls for the preservation and cultivation of genuine affection and concern for fellow believers. Brotherly love, or agape, refers to selfless, unconditional love that reflects the love of God.
2. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers (verse 2): This verse urges hospitality toward travelers and strangers. By welcoming others, members of the church may unwittingly extend kindness to angels, demonstrating the importance of showing compassion and generosity to all people.

Both verses serve as reminders of the values and virtues essential to the Christian life. They encourage believers to foster unity and mutual care within the body of Christ, as well as to exhibit grace and kindness to outsiders.

Love your zest and zeal for Christ Jesus brother.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Saul was rejected as king. Not salvation

Saul was a type as was David. Saul was the people's choice. David was God's choice. Saul represents the natural man. David is a type of Christ. So God's rejection of Saul pictures the rejection of those who live separately from God. It probably points to the lack of salvation for Saul.

 

[Cameron143]

And may we not forget-

1. Let brotherly love continue (verse 1): This verse calls for the preservation and cultivation of genuine affection and concern for fellow believers. Brotherly love, or agape, refers to selfless, unconditional love that reflects the love of God.
2. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers (verse 2): This verse urges hospitality toward travelers and strangers. By welcoming others, members of the church may unwittingly extend kindness to angels, demonstrating the importance of showing compassion and generosity to all people.

Both verses serve as reminders of the values and virtues essential to the Christian life. They encourage believers to foster unity and mutual care within the body of Christ, as well as to exhibit grace and kindness to outsiders.

Love your zest and zeal for Christ Jesus brother.
J.

Very good reminder.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Saul was rejected as king. Not salvation

he was sent into exile, and God would not speak to him. Saul clearly states That God is no longer speaking to him.

It no different to God Saying to the Israelites I will no longer hear your prayers until you welcome the lord.

It's no different to God not answering prayers in the 8 separate verses i posted regarding, God no longer answering prayers of people who have walked with him.

Why is it so difficult to see that faith comes before salvation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Saul was a type as was David. Saul was the people's choice. David was God's choice. Saul represents the natural man. David is a type of Christ. So God's rejection of Saul pictures the rejection of those who live separately from God. It probably points to the lack of salvation for Saul.

Saul was a man who was changed by the spirit.

It doesn't matter if he was a king