Do You Believe Unrepentant Sinners in Hell Can be Saved?

[Mem]

In Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man calls Abraham "Father" and Abraham calls the rich man "Child" and tells him that if his brothers do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. And since Jesus rose from the dead, this suggests there is no difference before or after his resurrection. Angels carried Lazarus into Abraham's bosom and the rich man was in Hades (with the word explained as the place of departed souls as well as reference to the basis of a touch-stone (and I've gathered a black-stone as opposed to a white-stone), and expresses his pain while Abraham declares Abraham's comfort.

Personally, I do believe this is temporary since everyone is eventually resurrected as "all who are in their graves will hear His voice (John 5:28)" and it is the lake of fire that is permanent, the second death (Rev 20:14), which has no power over those who share in the first resurrection, and these are those in Christ. And since the anti-Christ and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and all those not written in the Book of Life (those 'out of' Christ, considering He IS the "I Am," i.e. Existence) Daniel 7:11 tells us of the beast slain and its body destroyed, and so will die (be dead) forever. Those in the first resurrection's bodies will not be touched by this fire, they will live forever.

 

[notmyown]

Where does scripture say that? I'm not going to base my theology on things you just make up out of thin air.

Irony, thou art a harsh and cruel mistress.

 

[PaulThomson]

The results and effects are everlasting...

Death comes to an end because sin will be no more.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sin will end and there will be no need for a preist and no need for a sacrifice.
The effects are eternal the meaning is eternal, the value is eternal but Jesus will take off the priestly robe and put on the royal, kingly garments when He comes. The cases will be decided

Rev 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You asserted that "sin will be no more." But you did not present any scripture that says that "sin will be no more."
You asserted that sin will end and there will be no need for a priest and no need for a sacrifice", but you did not present any scripture that says any of that.

 

[JohnDB]

What Universalism teaches (sinners in hell get to repent and access heaven) is a form of gnosticism.

It's flat out gnostic teachings.

No different from the teaching of how sinners do not have to give up their sin (for some sort of convoluted reasoning) to be counted among the "Christian club".

This is especially popularly prevalent among the LGBTQ crowd who wish to partake in Church life and have access to any children and adults contained within.

It's just gnostic teachings....as old as John's gospel.

 

[PaulThomson]

So your going to try to use the wisdom of men to explain the wisdom of God?

Did Not God call that foolishness?

There are two judgments spoken of in the word

the Bema seat. Where BELIEVERS are judged and rewarded for their works and the fruit they bore while alive

the great white throne, This is where death and hades will be delivered, every there will be cause into outer darkness, seperated from god for all eternity.

there is no test. We all failed the test the moment we broke that first command of God and became sinner.

Paul asks, "Death where is your sting? The sting of death is sin..." Has sin ceased in believers? Has death been defeated in believers? Has the work of Christ delivered us from death despite our falling into sin at times? If the work of Christ can keep us from death now, even if we sometimes sin, why would you assume that the destruction of death after the great white throne must mean there can be no more sin after the great white throne judgment? Why would you assume the sacrifice of Christ will no longer be as effective to heal an occasional sinner after the resurrection of the saints as it has been before the resurrection of the saints?

 

[PaulThomson]

What Universalism teaches (sinners in hell get to repent and access heaven) is a form of gnosticism.

It's flat out gnostic teachings.

No different from the teaching of how sinners do not have to give up their sin (for some sort of convoluted reasoning) to be counted among the "Christian club".

This is especially popularly prevalent among the LGBTQ crowd who wish to partake in Church life and have access to any children and adults contained within.

It's just gnostic teachings....as old as John's gospel.

That's not what universalism teaches. Universalism teaches that all sinners in hell will eventually repent and access heaven, The Bible does not teach universalism. But neither does it teach that it is impossible in the infinity of time after one's death to repent and be reconciled to God through appreciating and loving Jesus.

The idea that sinners in hell get to repent and access heaven is NOTHING LIKE the idea that sinners now can sin unrepentantly and be counted in the Christian club.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Where? What does Paul say that MEANs what you ascribe to him here? Do you have scriptures that say what you merely assert boldly. Asserting something boldly doesn't make that thing true.

Romans 1:28
God gave them a "reprobate mind."

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Paul asks, "Death where is your sting? The sting of death is sin..." Has sin ceased in believers? Has death been defeated in believers? Has the work of Christ delivered us from death despite our falling into sin at times? If the work of Christ can keep us from death now, even if we sometimes sin, why would you assume that the destruction of death after the great white throne must mean there can be no more sin after the great white throne judgment? Why would you assume the sacrifice of Christ will no longer be as effective to heal an occasional sinner after the resurrection of the saints as it has been before the resurrection of the saints?

Yes death has been defeated. When I die I will be present with the lord. So My Death will just be a passage.. Death has no power over me.

As for no more sin?

You’re joking right. may I ask where you get this information? What church teaches this nonsense?

 

[PaulThomson]

Romans 1:28
God gave them a "reprobate mind."

No. That's not what Paul says. He says God gave them over to a reprobate mind. paradidOmi. The same word used of Judas giving Jesu over to the Sanhedrin. Judas did not give Jesus the Sanhedrin. He gave Jesus over to the Sanhedrin.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Paul asks, "Death where is your sting? The sting of death is sin..." Has sin ceased in believers? Has death been defeated in believers? Has the work of Christ delivered us from death despite our falling into sin at times? If the work of Christ can keep us from death now, even if we sometimes sin, why would you assume that the destruction of death after the great white throne must mean there can be no more sin after the great white throne judgment? Why would you assume the sacrifice of Christ will no longer be as effective to heal an occasional sinner after the resurrection of the saints as it has been before the resurrection of the saints?

Yes death has been defeated. When I die I will be present with the lord. So My Death will just be a passage.. Death has no power over me.

As for no more sin?

You’re joking right. may I ask where you get this information? What church teaches this nonsense?

It's a question.

If the work of Christ can keep us from death now, even if we sometimes sin, why would you assume that the destruction of death after the great white throne must mean there can be no more sin after the great white throne judgment?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No. That's not what Paul says. He says God gave them over to a reprobate mind. paradidOmi. The same word used of Judas giving Jesu over to the Sanhedrin. Judas did not give Jesus the Sanhedrin. He gave Jesus over to the Sanhedrin.

Because they rejected God. Which was my original post to you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

how do we know that?

why would we be the judges of angels if there is no mercy available to them? why would Christ preach to them if they cannot possibly hear? why would God create and redeem man in their sight if we are meaningless to their situation?

they are witness to the beginning of Adam until the end of days. why does God show them this?

I think you just blew my mind. There are some deep thoughts. Now see if I'm bright enough to keep up with the conversation.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Did he love the Cities, as He rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah?
Genesis 19

God is both loving and just. And that was OT, before Christ.

Luke 9:54-55 New King James Version (NKJV)
And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Rom 9:13

Well, you have the right name cause you sure twister that scripture.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Where does scripture say that?

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

God is both loving and just. And that was OT, before Christ.

Luke 9:54-55 New King James Version (NKJV)
And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

The only way to understand an isolated verse is to read the context. Read the previously verses. Jesus sent disciples ahead to a Samaritan village. The village didn't want to receive Him, that's it.

52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

Jesus came to seek and to save those who are lost. John 3
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

The disciples were likely referencing what was written in 2 Kings 1 . God pronounced judgement upon the wicked king who sent captains with 50 soldiers to go after Elijah. God roasted them with fire from heaven at Elijah's request. This wasn't a situation like that at all. Nor did Jesus come to judge the world at that point. That does not mean that God gave up His attributes of righteousness and justice. He still judges and Romans 1 describes those He rejects.

Keep reading the New Testament.
Eventually you will come to the most knarley hard core wrath and expression of Justice God that has yet to be seen in all of history.
There's an entire book written about it in the NEW Testament.
Jesus is going to bring far more than fire down from heaven. John described it as the wrath of God.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The only way to understand an isolated verse is to read the context. Read the previously verses. Jesus sent disciples ahead to a Samaritan village. The village didn't want to receive Him, that's it.

52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

Jesus came to seek and to save those who are lost. John 3
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

The disciples were likely referencing what was written in 2 Kings 1 . God pronounced judgement upon the wicked king who sent captains with 50 soldiers to go after Elijah. God roasted them with fire from heaven at Elijah's request. This wasn't a situation like that at all. Nor did Jesus come to judge the world at that point. That does not mean that God gave up His attributes of righteousness and justice. He still judges and Romans 1 describes those He rejects.

Keep reading the New Testament.
Eventually you will come to the most knarley hard core wrath and expression of Justice God that has yet to be seen in all of history.
There's an entire book written about it in the NEW Testament.
Jesus is going to bring far more than fire down from heaven. John described it as the wrath of God.

I don't think that was the part we disagree on. God is both merciful and just. Perfectly just. But abiding in mercy. God hates sin, but He loves that soul and calls them to come till their last breath.

 

[NightTwister]

Well, you have the right name cause you sure twister that scripture.

Which word(s) did I change?

 

[PaulThomson]

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Again, we are told what the afterlife was like at the time Jesus was preaching. We are not told that this is the wsy things will be foreve.r. Yo are reading that idea into the text.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Which word(s) did I change?

One translation says rejected,

But besides this the Edomites descendants of Esau where given a promise of God. 😊