The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

[Evmur]

At this "GREAT" trumpet (Matt24:29-31&parallels), notice WHO (and TO WHERE) the "gathering" pertains: SEE Isaiah 27:9,12-13

(and IN WHAT MANNER they will be gathered: "ONE BY ONE" [NOT "AS ONE," as WE will be!!])










Isa 27:9 a
By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin [read Rom11:27!! "when I shall take away THEIR [Israel's] SINS"; see Dan9:24!! Rom11:27,25,15... Hos5:14-6:3, etc etc]
[...]
Isa 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet [Matt24:29-31 +] shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

this is the gathering of the Jews not to be raptured but to Israel where they are to reign on earth 1, 000 years. Two will be sleeping in one bed and one taken and one remain, two will be working in the mill ...etc taken "where Lord?"

"Where the carrion is there shall the eagles be gathered" the carrion will be the slain of those who came up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And who are the "they"? Are they not the unbelieving and unrighteous who will weep and wail at His Second Coming?

Right. The "THEY" in this context is not "the Church which is His body".


And where the text states, "then shall all the TRIBES [phylai / phulé - G5443] OF THE EARTH mourn," I do not believe the word "TRIBES [G5443]" (in Scripture) is ever used of anyone other than "the tribes OF ISRAEL".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

this is the gathering of the Jews not to be raptured but to Israel

I agree.



Some in this thread want to make this context (Jesus' Olivet Discourse) be about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," when that is NOT its CONTEXT.

(Jesus, NOWHERE in His Olivet Discourse, was covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"! RIGHT!)




Instead, He is talking (in His OLIVET DISCOURSE) to a "proleptic 'you'" (and a "consistent 'you') in that passage, as THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED! (that's not [to] "you & me" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")





I'm glad we can agree on this point!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Two will be sleeping in one bed and one taken and one remain, two will be working in the mill ...etc taken "where Lord?"

[from how I'm reading you] I trust you AGREE with me, that:

--the ones "TAKEN" (in these contexts) are "taken away IN JUDGMENT" (just as in Noah's day);

--and the ones who are "LEFT" (in these contexts) are "left TO ENTER the MK age [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children--the ONLY ONES who will have that capacity in the MK age, besides their offspring, of course, who will also]" (just as in Noah's day, likewise)



[this is a "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" CONTEXT (Rev19!); NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" context!]

"Where the carrion is there shall the eagles be gathered" the carrion will be the slain of those who came up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem.

Yeah, Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" (that's NOT what takes place at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" TIME-SLOT!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

no I think his marching into the temple will come as a complete shock and surprise to everybody. It will be a breach of whatever pact he has going with the Jews. I believe he will be slain the moment he utters his blasphemy.

Wait a minute.

Surely you are not suggesting that when he does the "SIT" and "thing (v.4b "shewing himself that he is God") at MID-trib, that THIS IS WHEN he will be slain (v.8a "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with ...")?!


I must disagree with that idea of the chronology.




[note: Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS of the Trib in his 2Th2 context... (and more); and we can KNOW this by COMPARING ALL OTHER passages covering this Subject, seeing where they each *connect* (time-and-sequence-wise)]

 

[B5]

The ones who will be ashamed and "crying for the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lamb" are the deceived ones who think Jesus is here already when in fact it was satan/lucifer in disguise to test everyone.(5 months which is shortened from the 7 years)

The great tribulation /Wrath/1000 year /day of the Lord/2nd advent/God's trib. follows the 5 month satans trib.
We are gathered at the 7th trumpet by Jesus. He will seem as a thief to those who thought He was already here.

There are 2 tribulations. Satans comes first(5 months)... then the great trib/wrath of God's trib. for 1000 years.

The 1st resurrection to an immortal soul is at the 7th trumpet for those who were not deceived and are not following the false one.

The 2nd resurrection will be those who come out of deception during that 1000 years... that "great multiude" that "come out of the great tribulation" (Rev.7)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

pardon me but I thought you had stop replying

Ok, you're pardoned

Love you in Christ too.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Contradictory to jesus's words matthew twenty four thirty moving on

I believe your point is to suggest that "the Day of the Lord" (its ARRIVAL point in time) is what Matthew 24:30 is showing... am I reading you right?

"The Day of the Lord" is AN EARTHLY-LOCATED TIME-PERIOD...

.... which "time-period" (the DOTL) commences / arrives as JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth OVER SOME TIME (the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period), prior to when Christ HIMSELF (PERSONALLY, IN HIS OWN PERSON) "comes" ("RETURNing" to the earth, Rev19/Matt24:29-31/Isa27:9,12-13, etc).







The "DOTL" does not [initially] ARRIVE ("so cometh") at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13, etc), as many suppose. NO!



No, it ARRIVES... "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman (the FIRST "BIRTH PANG" JESUS SPOKE OF: Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [(bringing deception) 'A CERTAIN ONE' - G5100 - tis]"--THAT IS the "WHOSE COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin (2Th2:9a), the rider of the wht horse WITH A "BOW" ("BOW" often meaning "DECEPTION") at the FIRST SEAL that Jesus will be opening FROM US THERE, at the START of the "7 years"

...(not at its ENDING; and not at its MIDDLE, as some suggest). The "beginning of birth pangs" (i.e. SEALS, and in particular THE FIRST ONE of those) is the "kick off" point, starting THE DOTL (i.e. the TRIB YEARS, aka "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the overall very lengthy [earthly-located] time-period known as "the DOTL")







Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 makes clear that the "future" aspects of that Book (from 4:1+) are "things which MUST come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN],"... NOT things which would unfold upon the earth over the course of some near-2000 YEARS, as the Historicists have it. NO!

Seal #1 kicks off the SEVEN YEAR PERIOD, known commonly as the Trib.

 

[John146]

There's only two advents.

Correct! The rapture of the body of Christ is not an "advent" for the Lord never steps foot on the earth, but catches his body up in the clouds.

 

[B5]

"Jacobs Trouble" is the 1000 year /day of the Lord/ the Great Tribulation/Wrath of God

God changed Jacob's name to "Israel"...A type of We all have to become "spiritually" "Israel".

Those who are deceived still at the 2nd advent/7th trumpet, have to go thru the mellenium and "work" to become "Israel". They are still "Jacob" with liable to die souls... and need to become "Israel" and get grafted back onto the Tree of Life and gain immortal souls at the 2nd resurrection. They missed the 1st resurrection into immortal souls at the 7th trumpet/2nd advent.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Correct! The rapture of the body of Christ is not an "advent" for the Lord never steps foot on the earth, but catches his body up in the clouds.

I agree with your OVERALL point... just not the "[nitty-gritty-]details" of it.




Again, the Greek word for our English word "advent" is used of BOTH circumstances / time-slots / events.

CONTEXT determine WHICH is being spoken of (whether our RAPTURE event / time-slot [and ITS OWN *destination location*], OR His Second Coming to the earth time-slot); but the Greek word itself is used IN EACH of these CONTEXTS.


But it all depends on WHO will be IN HIS PRESENCE (in whatever context):



--in the case of "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" [/"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"), it is ONLY US ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") who will be in His presence (NO ONE ELSE!)--1Th4:17 / 3:13 / 2Th2:1 (see this GREEK word [under present discussion] used in the underlined passages, speaking of OUR RAPTURE time-slot / event);


--in the case of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 /etc), "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth at THAT time-slot shall "SEE Him" (like Acts 1:11 is talking about: "AS YE HAVE SEEN..." He "shall SO COME in LIKE MANNER"... that is, VISIBLY), when it will be the "MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia [/advent] of Him (2Th2:8b) TO THE EARTH ("EVERY EYE shall SEE Him" at THAT time-slot... not the other, as you agree).






My point only concerns the word "advent" (in the Greek--the Greek word for our English word "advent") and how it is actually used, in each of these cases; which actually applies (re: Jesus) to EACH time-slot... but ONLY involving the persons it involves in each of those VERY DISTINCT TIMES (per CONTEXT), not to mention, DISTINCT LOCATIONS. lol

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... so the "Rapture" is not an "advent" (of Christ) to ANYONE ELSE BUT US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (2Th2:1 and 1Th3:13 / 4:17 = RAPTURE)...

... is a more biblically accurate way of expressing that matter




(because the Greek word for our English word "advent" IS used in BOTH cases / contexts [RAPTURE and His SECOND COMING to the earth]... but it depends on WHO will be in His presence, at which time-slot [and WHERE]... because they are VERY DISTINCT time-slots and VERY DISTINCT locations and VERY DISTINCT persons involved, in each case [/context] )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Those who are deceived still at the 2nd advent/7th trumpet, have to go thru the mellenium and "work" to become "Israel".

When we read through the gospels accounts, EVERYWHERE that it is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth, NO UNBELIEVERS are shown to ENTER the time-period we call "the Millennial Kingdom age"; ONLY "believers / the righteous / the wise / the BLESSED / etc" (i.e. saved persons / believers) will be the ones permitted ENTRANCE into that time-period (the earthly MK age).




A cpl of other examples (speaking of that time-slot):

--"and the remnant WERE SLAIN" (not permitted entrance!), Rev19:19,21a;

--"and destroyed them ALL" (not permitted entrance!), Lk17:27,29





[now, once the still-living "believers" (only) ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, THOSE people/mortals will bear children/reproduce, and those offspring will not be "BORN automatically 'righteous'" (no!) and it is THESE persons BORN to them (in the MK age) who will be THE ONLY ONES susceptible to "death" in and during the MK age; "death" being much more RARE in the MK age, reserved only for the rebellious... (and it will be swift...)]

 

[B5]

The "Hour of tempatation" is the 5 months that satan is here on earth to test/tempt people.(Dan 9:27 , the 7 years has been shortened to 5 months otherwise no flesh would be saved). There is No more flesh at the 7th trumpet/all changed and the mellenium begins.

Christians "escape the hour of temptation" because we know who he(satan) is and are not "tempted" to follow him and are not tempted by him.

The "temptation" is to try to get us to follow the false one. We know God's plan is to use satan for 5 months. Satan sets up the one world system, and destroys all the false religions,, but then he tries to get Christians and everyone else to beleive "he" is Jesus/God.

Jesus comes at the 2nd advent to gather us at the LAST trumpet, the 7th. (Satan claims to be Jesus at the 6th trumpet.)

There is NO MORE FLESH BODIES at the 7th trumpet when Jesus returns to gather.. everyone is now in supernatural bodies for the mellenium.

The "sheep are separated from the goats" at the 7th trumpet.

 

[Medad]

And who are the "they"? Are they not the unbelieving and unrighteous who will weep and wail at His Second Coming? Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) So do you see the saints weeping and wailing because Christ is coming for them? Or do you see the absurdity of connecting the Rapture with this?

You're suggesting there's three advents. The Lord Jesus only comes one more time at the last Trump. As he told you after the tribulation. Now don't you think it's ridiculous to say it's not about the tribulation???

 

[Medad]

The "Hour of tempatation" is the 5 months that satan is here on earth to test/tempt people.(Dan 9:27 , the 7 years has been shortened to 5 months otherwise no flesh would be saved). There is No more flesh at the 7th trumpet/all changed and the mellenium begins.

Christians "escape the hour of temptation" because we know who he(satan) is and are not "tempted" to follow him and are not tempted by him.

The "temptation" is to try to get us to follow the false one. We know God's plan is to use satan for 5 months. Satan sets up the one world system, and destroys all the false religions,, but then he tries to get Christians and everyone else to beleive "he" is Jesus/God.

Jesus comes at the 2nd advent to gather us at the LAST trumpet, the 7th. (Satan claims to be Jesus at the 6th trumpet.)

There is NO MORE FLESH BODIES at the 7th trumpet when Jesus returns to gather.. everyone is now in supernatural bodies for the mellenium.

The "sheep are separated from the goats" at the 7th trumpet.

Yes I agree with this completely. But let's be clear. The hour of temptation is gonna be hell. For example you may find it tough to eat. You may find it tough to make a living. Pretty much the whole world gonna be against you As they will believe the false 1 to be the messiah here to fly your souls away and now you talking against him? Don't underestimate the hour of temptation.

 

[B5]

It is written that satan is "not allowed to touch one hair on the head" of those who know that it is really satan here instead of Jesus (when satan is in disguise claiming to be Jesus for that hour).

It is a "spiritual death" (NOT a physical death) to those who follow satan, as he is not allowed to physically kill anyone (and satan only then is allowed to actually physically kill the 2 witnesses at the end... then Jesus returns 3.5 days later at the 7th trumpet.)

Satan is coming here claiming to be Jesus... claiming "peace" and that he will take care of everyone who comes to him...

If he came here killing everyone, everyone would know it is not Jesus (as Jesus in not a murderer)
....So those who come to him will indeed be given land, riches and taken care of etc..... It is only us who know it is really satan here instead of Jesus, who he will try to persuade/tempt to follow him.

God will deliver us up to satan to witness against him, and we will not accept any riches from him/satan.. but it is only for 2.5 months, and God takes care of HIs own...
He will take care of us , as satan is not allowed to physically kill us. So when you see the flying vehicles come here (which will be satan and the fallen angels) for that hour(5 months).. the first 2.5 months they try to set up that OWO which fails... then for that LAST 2.5 months, just make sure you have stocked up some food for 2.5 months... not too hard to do that.

Again, it is a "spiritual death" (not physical)to those who think he/satan is Jesus... those who follow him are the "apostacy" falling away ones. The apostac that takes place before Jesus returns as written in 2 Thess.

We are witnesses against satan in the hopes that some of those who hear it, will snap out of it and realize it is really satan and not Jesus.
They are grafted onto satan's tree at the 6th trumpet , his one world religious system... but if they repent when they hear the witnessing of the 2 witnesses and others who know it is satan and not Jesus, they can then repent and be grafted back onto the Tree of Life before the 7 trumpet sounds.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You're suggesting there's three advents.

I am suggesting no such thing. Read what I wrote carefully. "Advent" means "the arrival of a notable person, thing, or event." But at the Resurrection/Rapture there is no "arrival". Instead it is an instantaneous departure.

 

[GaryA]

The moment Jesus "appears" [in the air] - even before He takes any opportunity to set foot on the earth - it constitutes an "arrival" - "arrival" occurs when He "shows up on the scene" - whether He is standing on the earth is totally beside the point.

If Jesus appeared one foot (or one mile) above the ground and "hovered" there for one minute before setting foot upon the ground - His "arrival" occurred at the start of that minute when He did in fact "arrive" - if/when His feet touch the ground has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of 'arrival'.

 

[GaryA]

Once again we are seeing a failure to rightly divide the promises to Israel from the promises to the body of Christ.

You got that right...

( And, no one makes a mix-mash of it better than 'pre-trib' folks! )

I believe Israel will be caught up post-trib, but the body of Christ will be caught up before Jacob's trouble.

There are no "catching up" promises to 'Israel'.

There is only one large group "catching up" event in prophecy.

The idea of the "catching up" of 'Israel' is "not even a thing" in scripture.