Ask away.. I am willing to answer any question any about my biblical beliefs

[shroom2]

I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible.

No, you haven't. You think you have.

Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both.

Again, you fail to consider the possibility that you are wrong in your interpretation of scripture.

God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just,

As referring to the second coming of Christ as known in the OT and Gospels, this is correct.

as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming.

No. The rapture of living Christian saints will occur before the tribulation. Remember, this time in which we are now living was not known about in both the OT and the gospels. OT prophesies of the resurrection did not include the rapture because they didn't even know Christians would exist. This includes Christ's teachings in the Gospels. This age of grace is part of the mystery, which was hid in God. Nobody knew about it until it was revealed to Paul.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

When Christ was about to ascend the disciples thought He would be returning soon, to set up the kingdom.

Acts 1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Christ did not return soon. He still has not returned. This age had a distinct beginning on the day or pentecost, and it will have a distinct end at the rapture, which will precede the tribulation.

It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation

Yes, the resurrection as prophesied in the OT and gospels will occur at the end of the tribulation.

and that the rapture comes after the resurrection.

No. The rapture for the Christian church will occur before the trib. Christians have been saved from the wrath. Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 specifically say that Christians are delivered from “coming wrath.”

At the second coming, Christ will return TO the earth, with his armies. Angels will announce His coming and gather the faithful Jews back to the homeland. At the rapture, Christians will rise to meet Christ in the air, and the earth will be left in “great delusion” (2 Thess. 2:11).

Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day.

As I mentioned before, there will be different events marked with trumpets. The rapture and the return of Christ are different events. You cannot tie them together because of the phrase "last trumpet".

We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.

That is said by Jesus to the Jews, and in Revelation which again, is written to the Jews. Christians are born of God, and saved by faith through grace, not by works.

So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts, that the coming of Christ isn't really His actual coming. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sounds funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Please see above. (incidentally, where does the bible say the rapture is on the same day as the resurrection? Are you talking about 1 Thess 4:16-17, where the dead rise first, then the living join them? The rapture includes dead Christians rising.)

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection.

Yes, but you fail to understand the mystery, and this administration of grace.

When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one.

Does that mean he returned at the last trumpet as the walls of Jericho fell? There will be more than one set of trumpets.

When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.

Again, where do you see the rapture happening on the same day as the second coming?

So why is the pretrib view taught, why is the church so deceived? What will happen to the preacher, pastor, and teachers that continue to deceive God's people? The pretrib rapture is taught because that is what people want to hear. It is what tickles their ears. No one wants to stand firm for God any more.
2nd Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust they shall heap together teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn their ears from the truth, and unto fables.

And then, naturally, out comes the "reasons" why you are right and everyone else is wrong. Naturally, -you- know the truth and everyone else has "itching ears", and is succumbing to false doctrine. Check a mirror once in awhile, 4runner.

Yet the truth is we ought to stand firm for Christ in the face of all adversity, and overcome evil with good. We were never promised that we would avoid hardships, or even persecutions. Just the opposite, we are told we will have to go through many trials, tribulations, and persecutions. We are commanded by Jesus to be faithful even unto death.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

It's talking about this life.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those thing which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Thankfully, the Christian church will not have to endure that.

I understand that this website is "anathema" to many who participate here, but here is a link to 23 reasons to believe in the pretrib rapture. They are listed below the video. Read it if you want.

Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together

 

[4runner]

Again, where do you see the rapture happening on the same day as the second coming?

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This is confirmed by 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time.



You are willfully blind, and I no longer going to repeat myself to you, because you have shown an unwillingness to care. If you want to debate the pretrib rapture start a thread about it.

 

[zone]

Coming in here acting like you do is not only disrespectful to me, but to everyone who is trying to have, a honest, intelligent conversion about the word..

oh my!
you rolled in here a whippersnapper shooting his mouth off from day one: claiming among other unbiblical insanity as sinless perfection and touting the Five-Fold heretics.

so those on your about ME thread are here to have an"a honest, intelligent conversion about the word" with you? you mean they're hear to ask you the Rabbi questions.

tell me: how does a man who has reached sinless perfection preach the Gospel Message of Christ crucified for sinners by blabbering all day long about SIN with no GOSPEL OF CHRIST CRUCIFED as the remedy?

and how does a guy who promotes kabbalah and mystical contemplative "spirituality" have any objective and clean truth to offer?

answer: he doesn't.

WARNING: except your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter in....better find out what that means.

there is a Righteousness for the people of God (but you don't know about that).

 

[shroom2]

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked.

That's in the gospels, before this age of grace was even known about. It's talking about the return of Christ TO the earth, at the end of the trib.

This is confirmed by 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time.

Again, these verses talk about Christ returning TO the earth "with his mighty angels". There are no angels mentioned when he returns for the church.

You are willfully blind, and I no longer going to repeat myself to you, because you have shown an unwillingness to care. If you want to debate the pretrib rapture start a thread about it.

I care very much. If I didn't, I would leave you to your error.

1 Cor 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

I will leave you to your thread.

 

[4runner]

how does a man who has reached sinless perfection preach the Gospel Message of Christ crucified for sinners by blabbering all day long about SIN with no GOSPEL OF CHRIST CRUCIFED as the remedy?

Well i do not know how a man who has reached sinlessness (or as you put it perfectionism) preaches the gospel. I would assume he would says what Paul says about putting all things behind you and keep moving forward to the high calling of Christ

As for me, I preach the same gospel Paul taught ''Christ is us''


Some will tell you it is impossible to live a life of pure obedience to God without ever stumbling or sinning. However Jesus said though it may be impossible for men, all things are possible for God. Moreover He said that to us who believe all things are possible. Finally Paul wrote that God is not only able to do what we believe or think He can, but He can do exceedingly, abundantly more than we could ever even imagine. And how does God accomplish this? Though the Holy Spirit power that is already dwelling in us.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
So if Jesus says we can, and Zone you mom, your pastor or anyone else says you can who are you going to believe Zone, or Jesus. Me? I believe Jesus

WARNING: except your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter in....better find out what that means.

Thats right because the scripes righteousness were filthy rags, are righteousness is in Christ.

The first step to being perfected is to realize it is not us, but Christ is us and that we on our own would never be able to accomplish anything, only by the grace of God working is us and for us enables us to accomplish perfection. Even then it is not us, but the Holy Spirit working in us that accomplishes this, yet when we get to Heaven we get the credit. Good deal huh?
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

there is a Righteousness for the people of God (but you don't know about that).

My righteousness is in Christ...Are you claiming Christ is not righteous?

 

[4runner]

No one who is still unsubmitted to the King should dare to imagine that he is welcome in the Kingdom

 

[zone]

The first step to being perfected is to realize it is not us, but Christ is us and that we on our own would never be able to accomplish anything, only by the grace of God working is us and for us enables us to accomplish perfection. Even then it is not us, but the Holy Spirit working in us that accomplishes this, yet when we get to Heaven we get the credit. ?

THE HERESY OF PERFECTIONISM

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.
​

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

 

[4runner]

THE HERESY OF PERFECTIONISM

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in

ALL Christians can achieves this as Jesus and Paul both taught

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
So if Jesus says we can, and Zone you mom, your pastor or anyone else says you can who are you going to believe Zone, or Jesus. Me? I believe Jesus

Anyone that says we cant is not really saying we cant, they are saying God cannot. Every knows that we can do nothing in and of ourselves. So the claim that Christians cannot overcome sin in this life is really an indictment against God Himself. They are telling you God is not able to keep us from sin. That our flesh is more powerful than God Himself.

 

[Strangelove]

Are you waiting for the Holy Spirit too?

 

[AnandaHya]

do you still believe in dual baptism of the Holy Spirit?

or how did you describe it.....infilling versus indwelling versus anointing which is compared to submersing and had something to do with power? it was kind of confusing and my eyes got cross

 

[Abiding]

Matt 19:26 is talking about a rich man seeing his need for a saviour

Mark 9:23 is about believing God governs all things

Eph 3:20 Is to recognize the Holyspirit does the work in us.

 

[zone]

Matt 19:26 is talking about a rich man seeing his need for a saviour

Mark 9:23 is about believing God governs all things

Eph 3:20 Is to recognize the Holyspirit does the work in us.

thank youi like what it really says, don't you?

 

[Strangelove]

I bet 4runner is still kicking himself from Boston to LA for getting the title of the thread wrong.

Gotta sting.

 

[4runner]

Matt 19:26 is talking about a rich man seeing his need for a saviour

Mark 9:23 is about believing God governs all things

Eph 3:20 Is to recognize the Holyspirit does the work in us.

You can deny what you want, but the word of God remains the same. However you are right about one thing. the holy Spirit does do all the work.

 

[4runner]

Are you waiting for the Holy Spirit too?

I am not sure what you mean by ''waiting on the Holy Spirit'', nor am I sure of who else you are referring to when you say ''too''

 

[4runner]

do you still believe in dual baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Umm what do you mean by ''dual baptism of the Holy Spirit''?

or how did you describe it.....infilling versus indwelling versus anointing which is compared to submersing and had something to do with power? it was kind of confusing and my eyes got cross

If you mean the difference between the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then yes I believe that is true, there is a difference.

 

[AnandaHya]

rephrase question:

do you have the holy spirit in you now?

the "too" well Cobus says he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him...

 

[AnandaHya]

If you mean the difference between the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then yes I believe that is true, there is a difference.

what would that be?

 

[4runner]

rephrase question:

do you have the holy spirit in you now?

the "too" well Cobus says he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him...

Yes I do, and all though Cobus is correct on many things, I #1 do believe he has the Holy Spirit even he doesnt, and #2 realize Cobus is a man, and can be mistaken. I will not judge him for that.

 

[Strangelove]

I am not sure what you mean by ''waiting on the Holy Spirit'', nor am I sure of who else you are referring to when you say ''too''

Cobus said:

Strange love the Holy Spirit is not ABIDING IN ME YET!!!
He only reproof me of sin. in my sub consciense and then I have to STOP what He shows me.. And when I am finished then the house is prepared for HIM TO TAKE OVER..

Are you still waiting for the HS to abide in you too?