Predestination is misunderstood...

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R

Rufus

Well-known member
#2,101
Feb 17, 2024
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#2,101
Thunderrr-mental said:
your interpretation is based on desire being free in an unsaved person.

Is desire still free in a saved person.
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Love how you keeping moving the goalposts. First, you started out mocking free will. Then you tried to obfuscate things by bringing "free nature" into the discussion. Now it's free desire.

A heart polluted by sin cannot have any good desires therein. Have you never read:

Eccl 9:3
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead?
NIV

The human heart is literally a cesspool of sin. But even so...the sinners here on earth dearly love their sinful styles, freely choosing to please themselves, which is why they cannot come to the Light they hate so with a passion (Jn 3:20).
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,102
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#2,102
Rufus said:
Love how you keeping moving the goalposts. First, you started out mocking free will. Then you tried to obfuscate things by bringing "free nature" into the discussion. Now it's free desire.

A heart polluted by sin cannot have any good desires therein. Have you never read:

Eccl 9:3
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead?
NIV

The human heart is literally a cesspool of sin. But even so...the sinners here on earth dearly love their sinful styles, freely choosing to please themselves, which is why they cannot come to the Light they hate so with a passion (Jn 3:20).
Click to expand...
I ain't moving no goal posts. The goal posts are not even there,

As your rationalising something that doesn't even exist for a saved person.

God has given you a spirit of discipline

Can you see what ever will you had before you where saved is now God's Will.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#2,103
Feb 17, 2024
1,047
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#2,103
Thunderrr-mental said:
I ain't moving no goal posts. The goal posts are not even there,

As your rationalising something that doesn't even exist for a saved person.

God has given you a spirit of discipline

Can you see what ever will you had before you where saved is now God's Will.
Click to expand...
I have been talking about unregenerate mankind. You BEGAN by asking me define "free will", which then you morphed into something you called "free nature" and then "free desire". :rolleyes:

And, no, God does not obliterate our volition. We Christians still retain all our faculties: Mind, Will, Emotions and Conscience. We're still made in God's image and likeness. The only difference now is that God has empowered us to do battle with and to substantially and essentially, but never perfectly in this life, overcome the "flesh", i.e. our sin nature, which is something else God has not obliterated but will be when our bodies are redeemed on the Last Day. He does this with his gracious New Covenant gifts -- the Holy Spirit and a new heart -- the heart being the seat of the aforementioned faculties. In short, our new heart with its new, godly desires moves us to make us willing to do God's will.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,104
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#2,104
Rufus said:
I have been talking about unregenerate mankind. You BEGAN by asking me define "free will", which then you morphed into something you called "free nature" and then "free desire". :rolleyes:

And, no, God does not obliterate our volition. We Christians still retain all our faculties: Mind, Will, Emotions and Conscience. We're still made in God's image and likeness. The only difference now is that God has empowered us to do battle with and to substantially and essentially, but never perfectly in this life, overcome the "flesh", i.e. our sin nature, which is something else God has not obliterated but will be when our bodies are redeemed on the Last Day. He does this with his gracious New Covenant gifts -- the Holy Spirit and a new heart -- the heart being the seat of the aforementioned faculties. In short, our new heart with its new, godly desires moves us to make us willing to do God's will.
Click to expand...
This is more your opinion than anything else, based on your ability to not accept correction.

Then your trying to fit scripture in with your natural understanding




According to scripture people are changed into the likeness of Christ,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Would you say having the mind of Christ is still having your own will 🤔
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#2,105
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#2,105
Thunderrr-mental said:
ok So on that note, are are you going to say voluntary choices are the same as your nature.
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Human nature is created in the image and likeness of God, therefore what's the problem with choices made according to one's nature?

Personally I would say God makes choices based on His character rather than saying His nature but as His character is inherent, unlike us, it is difficult to divide the two in Him.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,107
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#2,107
sawdust said:
Human nature is created in the image and likeness of God, therefore what's the problem with choices made according to one's nature?

Personally I would say God makes choices based on His character rather than saying His nature but as His character is inherent, unlike us, it is difficult to divide the two in Him.
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where does it say in the bible you have free will
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#2,109
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
13,439
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#2,109
Thunderrr-mental said:
Can you see what ever will you had before you where saved is now God's Will.
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That’s simply wrong. God’s will doesn't supplant the human will when the person is saved. Rather, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and makes it possible for the person to obey God’s will while also making God’s will known to the person. The person is still free and able to do otherwise.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#2,110
Feb 17, 2024
1,047
100
63
#2,110
Thunderrr-mental said:
This is more your opinion than anything else, based on your ability to not accept correction.

Then your trying to fit scripture in with your natural understanding




According to scripture people are changed into the likeness of Christ,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Would you say having the mind of Christ is still having your own will 🤔
Click to expand...
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#2,111
Feb 17, 2024
1,047
100
63
#2,111
Thunderrr-mental said:
This is more your opinion than anything else, based on your ability to not accept correction.

Then your trying to fit scripture in with your natural understanding




According to scripture people are changed into the likeness of Christ,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Would you say having the mind of Christ is still having your own will 🤔
Click to expand...
Here's what I would say to you: BYE, BYE. Hope you wake up some day.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,112
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#2,112
Dino246 said:
That’s simply wrong. God’s will doesn't supplant the human will when the person is saved. Rather, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and makes it possible for the person to obey God’s will while also making God’s will known to the person. The person is still free and able to do otherwise.
Click to expand...
this depends at what stage your at in being saved, if your at full pint glass stage then you have a new mind and a new heart. Your path is now set,.your will has been broken

And you have fully surrenderd your will 😋
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#2,114
Feb 17, 2024
1,047
100
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#2,114
Dino246 said:
That’s simply wrong. God’s will doesn't supplant the human will when the person is saved. Rather, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and makes it possible for the person to obey God’s will while also making God’s will known to the person. The person is still free and able to do otherwise.
Click to expand...
Evidently, Mr. Thunder has never read Romans 7 wherein Paul describes his battle with the flesh, most likely as a young believer. In that passage, Paul often spoke of his will.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,115
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#2,115
Rufus said:
Evidently, Mr. Thunder has never read Romans 7 wherein Paul describes his battle with the flesh, most likely as a young believer. In that passage, Paul often spoke of his will.
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It's mr metal to you 😋 not mr mental 😊
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#2,117
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
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#2,117
Thunderrr-mental said:
this depends at what stage your at in being saved, if your at full pint glass stage then you have a new mind and a new heart. Your path is now set,.your will has been broken

And you have fully surrenderd your will 😋
Click to expand...
Wrong. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer FULLY at the time of salvation. Salvation is a point-in-time event, and though there is a process around it, the ‘new mind, new heart’ begins immediately.

By the way, the human will is not “broken” but rather surrendered and transformed.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#2,118
Dec 18, 2023
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406
83
#2,118
Dino246 said:
Wrong. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer FULLY at the time of salvation. Salvation is a point-in-time event, and though there is a process around it, the ‘new mind, new heart’ begins immediately.

By the way, the human will is not “broken” but rather surrendered and transformed.
Click to expand...
explain at what point salvation comes.

Does it come at first belief
 
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