For all the wise tell me this

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Aug 18, 2011
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If what we commonly call corn or maise was not discovered by European or middle eastern peoples till the late 15th century or early 16th century how is it that the scriptures speak of it all the way back to Genesis?
I have spent a lot of time and research on this curiousity I.E. language translation of the bible through 3 different languages, extensive research in archeology reports etc. If you know definitively please tell me.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#3
If what we commonly call corn or maise was not discovered by European or middle eastern peoples till the late 15th century or early 16th century how is it that the scriptures speak of it all the way back to Genesis?
I have spent a lot of time and research on this curiousity I.E. language translation of the bible through 3 different languages, extensive research in archeology reports etc. If you know definitively please tell me.
so what God made the world

there is lots of things that European or middle eastern people haven't discovered. Chinese had fireworks, what's your point? It doesn't exist unless the Europeans know about it?

think about it this way, why did they have a word for it in their language if they didn't have something for that word to symbolize?
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#4
Thanks for the response but it has not answered my question this is not a question of faith as much as it is about a need to know and I will be very frank I am in NO way trying to discredit the scriptures I am simply trying to figure out how this came in to being. Is it from the amalgamation done in 1611 when King James had the bible rewritten in english trying to indentify with the followers of the day? As I have no way to obtain the original texts I have no way of knowing the original structure of the written word. I have been moved VERY deeply as of late to learn all that I can about the Christian faith and all of it's teachings and I just can't get enough so to all you scribes out there once again I ask the above question.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#5
lol there are so many questions. there is a word in Hebrew that describes a type of grain whether or not this is maize or corn as we call it is debatable but is it essential to know? God reveals His truth and highlights the important things. if we get stuck on little things and chase after details it will be hard to get to the meat of it all.

if you really want to they have software that allows you to look at the text for the original meaning and search the whole Bible to see where it appears and by comparing how the word is used in various passages you may learn more about the true meaning of the word...

anyway my Bible does not say corn or maize but simply Grain.

here is a link to 232 references to grain

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...chtype=all&version1=50&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

do you realize that there used to be over 2000 species of rice and now due to making money and other factors we are down to just 20 or so?

Also do to bad farming techniques it is said that Bananas might go extinct.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Bananas could split for good

"Edible bananas may disappear within a decade if urgent action is not taken to develop new varieties resistant to blight.
A Belgian scientist leading research into the fruit loved by millions, and a staple for much of the world's poor, has warned that diseases and pests are steadily encroaching upon crops.

The problem is that the banana we eat is a seedless, sterile article which could slip the way of its predecessor which was wiped out by blight half a century ago."
 
K

kgl801

Guest
#6
:( I love bananas!!!!! I 'll add them to my prayer list.
 
R

Rosewater

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#7
Thanks for the response but it has not answered my question this is not a question of faith as much as it is about a need to know and I will be very frank I am in NO way trying to discredit the scriptures I am simply trying to figure out how this came in to being. Is it from the amalgamation done in 1611 when King James had the bible rewritten in english trying to indentify with the followers of the day? As I have no way to obtain the original texts I have no way of knowing the original structure of the written word. I have been moved VERY deeply as of late to learn all that I can about the Christian faith and all of it's teachings and I just can't get enough so to all you scribes out there once again I ask the above question.

Here is a timeline of the first English bible translations: http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

Tynedale's handwritten new testament copies were produced in the mid 1300s - wasn't until 1535 that a complete old and new testament bible all in English was produced. Columbus discovered the Americas in 1492 and at the same time Indian corn. This timeline and the word entymology for the English "corn" as described in the first link provided seems to fit.
 
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Rosewater

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#8
Oops, Wycliffe's hand-written manuscripts of 1300s - Tyndale was later on, early 1500s.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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#9
Thanks for the response but it has not answered my question this is not a question of faith as much as it is about a need to know and I will be very frank I am in NO way trying to discredit the scriptures I am simply trying to figure out how this came in to being. Is it from the amalgamation done in 1611 when King James had the bible rewritten in english trying to indentify with the followers of the day? As I have no way to obtain the original texts I have no way of knowing the original structure of the written word. I have been moved VERY deeply as of late to learn all that I can about the Christian faith and all of it's teachings and I just can't get enough so to all you scribes out there once again I ask the above question.

How did Moses learn about germs in a land and place where medicinal understanding was take donkey dung mix it with fly urine and feed it to your crying baby til they stop crying. At this time it was widely believed that bathing was unhealthy. And Moses lived with the Egyptians and was learned in all their ways from birth.. where did this understanding come from?

here we have germs




He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean. After that he shall come into the camp, and shall stay outside his tent seven days. But on the seventh day he shall shave all the hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows—all his hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes and wash his body in water, and he shall be clean

leviticus 14

here we have quarantine

‘It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,’ then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house. And he shall examine the plague; and indeed if the plague is on the walls of the house with ingrained streaks, greenish or reddish, which appear to be deep in the wall, then the priest shall go out of the house, to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days. And the priest shall come again on the seventh day and look; and indeed if the plague has spread on the walls of the house, then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which is the plague, and they shall cast them into an unclean place outside the city. And he shall cause the house to be scraped inside, all around, and the dust that they scrape off they shall pour out in an unclean place outside the city. Then they shall take other stones and put them in the place of those stones, and he shall take other mortar and plaster the house.
“Now if the plague comes back and breaks out in the house, after he has taken away the stones, after he has scraped the house, and after it is plastered, then the priest shall come and look; and indeed if the plague has spread in the house, it is an active leprosy in the house. It is unclean. And he shall break down the house, its stones, its timber, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall carry them outside the city to an unclean place. Moreover he who goes into the house at all while it is shut up shall be unclean until evening. And he who lies down in the house shall wash his clothes, and he who eats in the house shall wash his clothes.

interesting revelations for a man living in 1300 BC
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#10
Thanks Rosewater for that info and as far as your response I think that is what I was looking for as far as information is concerned good post
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#11
EXCELLENT QUESTION!!! I love it when I see my sisters and brothers in the faith really using their head!

Some translations use the word "corn" as a translation of the Hebrew word DAGAN. The Hebrew word is a generic term for various types of grains.

The corn that we think of as "corn" here in the US is completely a new-world grain, and would not have been growing in Ancient Egypt or Israel. However, in many English-speaking countries besides the US, the word "corn" is used more generically to include many different types of grains, including wheat and barley, both of which could have been growing in those places. (I'm not saying God didn't know what corn was ... of course God knew, but the Hebrews would not have, and would not have had a word for that type of grain. So it doesn't really matter what God knew, the people who transcribed the Bible would never have even considered "corn" the way we Americans use the term.)

As an aside, in those countries where the word "corn" is used to describe all sorts of grains, the word "maize" is used to refer to corn as Americans know it. Think of it like the confusion of the word "football" among the US vs. the rest of the world.

I'm not sure why any American translation would use the word "corn," because, as you point out, it is highly misleading. But the earlier English translations were British, not American. It might be interesting to talk to an etymologist to find out how long the word "corn" has been used to describe grains in the English language.
 
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Rosewater

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#12
Thanks Rosewater for that info and as far as your response I think that is what I was looking for as far as information is concerned good post
Glad it helped.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#13
Thanks for the reply grunge diva
but if you have also noticed there are many references to grains in the bible barley for instance and wheat these are never referred to as ears of wheat or ears of barley but I do think that the eptymology is most certainly the source for this curiousity but am not 100% convinced as yet still searching the scriptures and there are many to look into see for yourself I hope all those who read this do check into it as well There is much to be learned from the text and as of late I search through it seemingly unceasingly as it has become my latest passion
references: Gen.41.5 Lev. 2.14 Lev. 23.14 Deut.23.25 Ruth 2.4 2kings4.42 Job24.24 Isaiah17.5 Matthew 12.1Mark2.23 and Luke 6.1

Peace and Love be yours
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#14
EXCELLENT QUESTION!!! I love it when I see my sisters and brothers in the faith really using their head!
Happy, happy, joy, joy, :) your excitement is infectious.
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#15
references: Gen.41.5 Lev. 2.14 Lev. 23.14 Deut.23.25 Ruth 2.4 2kings4.42 Job24.24 Isaiah17.5 Matthew 12.1Mark2.23 and Luke 6.1
Let me provide an interlinear translation of each of these references

Gen 41.5b
vayishan vayyachalom sheniyth vhiyneh shba' shivliym*
He fell asleep and he dreamed a second time and indeed seven ears*
'oloth bqaneh ehchad briyot vtobot
came up on reed one fat and good

The words of interest here are "shibbol," translated as "ear," and "qaneh," translated here as "reed"
The primary meaning of "shibbol" is "flowing stream." It is translated as "ear" when referring to grain, as in growing in a cluster. I guess imagine a river with tributaries? I can certainly see how grain would grow like that ... not the little seed bit, but the thicker stalk part.
"Qaneh" means stalk or reed, and can be used in other ways, but I imagine like a pussy willow (though I think that is a new-world plant, too .... but that's the image I get in my head)


Lev 2.14
vim - taqriyb minchat bikuriym laYHVH abiyb
If you bring offering first fruits for the Lord fresh barley
qaluy baesh geresh karmel taqriym et minchat bikureyka
burnt in fire crushed garden you bring the offering first fruits

Neither the word "ear" nor "corn" were in my translations. The grain here is clearly barley, a specific grain that is not corn as us Americans know it. I suppose brits might refer to barley as a kind of corn, though I'm not sure.


Deut 23.25
kiy tabo bqamat reka vkatapt mliylot byadeka
when you come into grain your neighbor's you pluck the head with your hand
vchermesh lo taniyp 'al qamat reka
but the sickle not you wield at grain your neighbor's

"Qamat" here refers to mature grain. Again, I don't see "ear" or "corn." Maliyah is a head of grain. Not sure why it's a different word from shibbol. I suspect if I were a Hebrew farmer I would get all the variations, but a city girl like me doesn't see them.

BTW, Love this verse: remember when Jesus and his disciples picked some grain, and the Pharisees complained that he was "working on the sabbath" ... Here it's clear that picking is not the same as harvesting. The Pharisees certainly were aware of this verse, and knew that hand-picking grain is not prohibited on the sabbath, but they were looking for nits to pick. Or maybe barley :)


Ruth 2.4
I don't see any reference to grain here. "Qatzar" means "to reap." No ears here.


2 Kings 4.42
viysh ba miba'al - shalisha vayabe lish haelohiym
A man came from Ba'al-Shalisha and brought for the man of God
lechem bikuriym eshriym - lechem shoriym vkarmel
bread first fruits twenty bread barleys of the crop
btziqlono vayomer ten la'am vyokelu
in his sack and he said give to the people and they will eat

"Sehorah" is another generic term for grain -- it refers to the meaty part of the grain, whichever grain it is.


Job 24.24
romu m'at veynenu
They are made high a little and nothing
vchumku kakol yiqaptzun
and they are brought low like all locked up
ukrosh shibolet yimalu
like the head ears they are cut

You remember "shibolet" from the Joseph reference.


Isaiah 17.5
vhayah ke'esop qatzir qamah
it will be like gathering reaping grain
uzro'o shibliym yiqtzir
his arm ears he harvests
vhayah kimlaqet shibliym b'emeq rpa'iym
and it will be like he gleaning ears in the valley Raphaim

"Qatzar," again, is our mature grain.


I am not as much a Greek scholar as a Hebrew scholar, so I can do the New Testament verses for you, but it would take me some more time.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#16
'm not sure how you come to these translations but I am quoting verbatum the KJV so if you are using a different version then running it through a google translator the translation may not be accurate I believe eptymology is the culprit here considering when the printing of the KJV was and all. It still doesn't truly detract from the truth of the word just a curiousity to be pondered
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#17
'm not sure how you come to these translations but I am quoting verbatum the KJV so if you are using a different version then running it through a google translator the translation may not be accurate I believe eptymology is the culprit here considering when the printing of the KJV was and all. It still doesn't truly detract from the truth of the word just a curiousity to be pondered
LOL, I'm not running anything through any on-line translator. I have yet to find an electronic translator worth anything.

I am a Hebrew scholar. I am providing the original Hebrew scriptures, and offering a word-for-word translation.

The KJV is not a bad translation, though there are better ones out there.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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#18
The word "corn" has many different meanings depending on what country you are in. Corn in the United States is also called maize or Indian corn. In some countries, corn means the leading crop grown in a certain district. Corn in England means wheat; in Scotland and Ireland, it refers to oats. Corn mentioned in the Bible probably refers to wheat or barley.
Origin, History and Uses of Corn
 
Aug 2, 2009
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#19
If what we commonly call corn or maise was not discovered by European or middle eastern peoples till the late 15th century or early 16th century how is it that the scriptures speak of it all the way back to Genesis?
I have spent a lot of time and research on this curiousity I.E. language translation of the bible through 3 different languages, extensive research in archeology reports etc. If you know definitively please tell me.
What is translated as corn in the OT may have actually been heads or stalks of grain. Example:

Genesis 41:5

King James Version:
And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good.

New Living Translation:
But he fell asleep again and had a second dream. This time he saw seven heads of grain, plump and beautiful, growing on a single stalk.


I'm not saying its proof that there was no corn, just suggesting a possible explanation.
 
Y

yaright

Guest
#20
Thanks for the response but it has not answered my question this is not a question of faith as much as it is about a need to know and I will be very frank I am in NO way trying to discredit the scriptures I am simply trying to figure out how this came in to being. Is it from the amalgamation done in 1611 when King James had the bible rewritten in english trying to indentify with the followers of the day? As I have no way to obtain the original texts I have no way of knowing the original structure of the written word. I have been moved VERY deeply as of late to learn all that I can about the Christian faith and all of it's teachings and I just can't get enough so to all you scribes out there once again I ask the above question.

In part, I understand the need to know the specific language. In ten different bibles, there can be ten 'almost' the same wordings.

Because there is a specific purpose in the harvests, feasts, bread making; I have found that the term corn is not a likely candidate for understanding the spiritual intent of these various needs of the Hebrew culture; which is a living language.

The original Christian bible was filled with many errors through poetic license and assumptions. The discovery of the black stone with three languages not only made a distinct change in some of the ways the bible was written; understanding also changed. Sometimes it helps to use two or three bibles and consider the 'word' they have chosen. In some cases, because of the complexity of the Hebrew and old Greek languages, it takes this many terms to grasp what is being spoken to us on a personal level; because we are examining these things from within, with what is known as the living word.

Sorry, too many books, too long ago; The only thing I am sure of is that my direction changed from an outward view, to an inward view. An example; The wars and rumors of wars we see and hear of; are the image of the inward battles that take place in spiritual terms. The 'world within'