Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,784
113
Ephesians 1:11

New International Version



11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


The scripture says he works everything in you with his will.
No, it does not. It says He works out everything in conformity with His will. Don't mess with Scripture.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
It says who will have all men saved is not saying He wills people saved, but that He desires all men saved. That is, this is His preference. He takes no pleasure in the death and destruction of man. But He does not will it. It is not accurate to say He wills it. This is a distortion of meaning and grammar. All that God wills comes to pass.
The meaning of will IS desire. To say that he wills people saved does not mean he desires all mean saved, is to say "He wills people saved does not mean he wills all people saved." But that is the self-contradictory result of developing theology by applying inductive reasoning to the Bible as Calvin and Luther did.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
The meaning of will IS desire. To say that he wills people saved does not mean he desires all mean saved, is to say "He wills people saved does not mean he wills all people saved." But that is the self-contradictory result of developing theology by applying inductive reasoning to the Bible as Calvin and Luther did.
his will, wills you to be changed.

Your will is dead until his will changes it.

So he wills you to be saved.

You don't will it for yourself

Will and desire are two different meanings
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Jesus often asked, "Why did you doubt?" And if everyone prayed only one prayer (to the LORD), "Lord, help thou, my unbelief!" I believe we'd see a proverbial algae bloom of revival.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
Ephesians 1:11

New International Version



11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


The scripture says he works everything in you with his will.
That's referring to saved people.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
So, even as all and every kind of sin is forgiven, if God does not will that unbelief is forgiven, then unbelief would be excluded from the sins forgiven. And indeed, it is written there is one unforgiveable sin, a sort of small print clause in the terms of the covenant, if you will, although I know that you will not. But if this is true.... then what? Is it impossible that you might have rejected a truth? I assume, since I believe contrarily in this matter, you must believe that I have rejected the truth, or at the least have embraced the lie.
The sin that isn't forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Unbelief is a sin everyone has committed. If that isn't forgiven, no one would be saved.

People assign falsely to God and distort what is true of God. God is more than just love. You hear all the time that...my God would never send someone to hell. That this is inconsistent with a loving God. And yet, people in large numbers lift up their eyes in hell and He's still a loving God. People say it would be unfair of God not to give everyone an opportunity to get saved. But there have been people groups who never heard the gospel. Yet God remains just. He never claimed to be fair. It just shows how easily people can misrepresent God and assume things about Him that simply aren't true.

God gets just as much glory in the exercise of one attribute as another. He is equally glorified in the exercise of love as He is in the exercise of justice. This is a hard thing for many people to accept.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
The meaning of will IS desire. To say that he wills people saved does not mean he desires all mean saved, is to say "He wills people saved does not mean he wills all people saved." But that is the self-contradictory result of developing theology by applying inductive reasoning to the Bible as Calvin and Luther did.
Name one time God has willed something and it did not come to pass...Daniel 4:35.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
Because saved people delight to do His will. And God's will is always best.
which joy would that be.

The true heavenly joy experienced,.by his will and his word and his seed.

Or The others joy is the scoffers joy.


John 6:38-40

New International Version



38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Ephesians 1:11

New International Version



11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


The scripture says he works everything in you with his will.
The scripture you cited does not say what you immediately asserted the scripture cited says.

If I say Thundrr-mental works everything to his advantage, do I mean you are exhaustively controlling all things to your advantage? Or do I mean you take whatever situation arises, even those outside your control, and find ways to tun them to your advantage?

God works all things according to the counsel of His will does not have to mean that he exhaustively controls all things, whatsoever comes to pass. so that everything that comes to pass is part of the couswl/plan of His will. It can mean mean that he turns all things that happen, even the things he is not controlling or willing, into means that advance, or at least fail to derail, the projects that are His will.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
We can purpose something for sure. But we cannot ensure it's completion.
I am going to respond to your assertion here and claim that it is nonsense. Look. I purposed something and made it happen. That disproves your assertion.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Name one time God has willed something and it did not come to pass...Daniel 4:35.
Is. 5:1-7 God did all He could for Israel and Judah to produce justice, but they did not.

Luke 13:34 Jesus willed to gather Jerusalem like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings but they would not..
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,931
419
83
That's is just playing God.

God created us in his image.

which means he had an image of how he should create us.
Question?
Did you just use your volition to write that response?

Do you choose when you decide to listen to thoughts that do not agree with God's Word?

You have volition. You just do not have God's attributes of omniscience and omnipotence to make every choice you make to end up perfect and as you wish it to be...

But? God has delegated us a domain for we humans to use our volition.
You keep keep confusing God's absolute volition to ours to negate us having volition....

But you "choose" to think that way. And, if you are not careful? Demons will use you because they study you, and understand your weaknesses and will exploit your ignorance of sound doctrine. Doctrine that you would have used to test the spirits and keep them in check.

You need to find a very good pastor teacher .. or die to the life Jesus died to give you.

grace and peace ................
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,931
419
83
We can purpose something for sure. But we cannot ensure it's completion.
God has granted each one of us our own domain to use our volition within.
Its according to his knowing what our limits and strengths are.
That is why He is fair in judging and evaluating man.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
I am going to respond to your assertion here and claim that it is nonsense. Look. I purposed something and made it happen. That disproves your assertion.
You missed my assumption. I didn't say we can't purpose and do. I said we can't ensure it will happen. All you did was misrepresent what I said; not prove it to be false.
Read James 4:13-15 for the understanding of what I actually said.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
Is. 5:1-7 God did all He could for Israel and Judah to produce justice, but they did not.

Luke 13:34 Jesus willed to gather Jerusalem like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings but they would not..
You mistake will with desire. If God were to will something and it did not come to pass, He is less than scripture claims He is. Read Daniel 4:35 again...He DOES His will. He doesn't simply purpose it, but brings it to fruition.