Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?
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Hey Lori. I hope you're well. I'm pre-Trib for the following reason:
Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation is by grace, the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we're saved because we endure through the Great Tribulation that would give us something to boast about and would not be by grace and would be a different means of salvation from those believers who passed on into glory before the Tribulation started. Just IMHO.
Besides who's to say a significant number of Christians could endure the Great Tribulation? In my experience if there's a church service the night of a sporting event on TV or a pop music event in the city then the church is empty. If folks can't give up a ball game for the sake of the Kingdom what makes us think that large numbers of Christians would be willing to give up their heads? Would they even recognize what's happening around them? (for those who are saved during the Great Tribulation the stakes may be different). That's why I'm glad Salvation does not depend on man, but upon God.
Again, my opinion. I'm sure others here may disagree but I hope we can have a good, friendly discussion together.
God Bless All
Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation is by grace, the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we're saved because we endure through the Great Tribulation that would give us something to boast about and would not be by grace and would be a different means of salvation from those believers who passed on into glory before the Tribulation started. Just IMHO.
Besides who's to say a significant number of Christians could endure the Great Tribulation? In my experience if there's a church service the night of a sporting event on TV or a pop music event in the city then the church is empty. If folks can't give up a ball game for the sake of the Kingdom what makes us think that large numbers of Christians would be willing to give up their heads? Would they even recognize what's happening around them? (for those who are saved during the Great Tribulation the stakes may be different). That's why I'm glad Salvation does not depend on man, but upon God.
Again, my opinion. I'm sure others here may disagree but I hope we can have a good, friendly discussion together.
God Bless All
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None of them I suppose. I believe that when that Eastern sky splits, and that Trump sounds, and Jesus comes down on a cloud to gather up His peoples who will meet Him in the sky, time will end. This world will be no more, and the Judgement will begin. All will appear before the Judgement Seat. Some unto eternal life, and some to eternal darnation.
The Rapture will be the end of this life on this earth. As for the Tribulations; we are currently living in them.
The Rapture will be the end of this life on this earth. As for the Tribulations; we are currently living in them.
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The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is the only event that fits perfectly into Bible prophecy.
The Rapture was always imminent according to Christ, with absolutely no reference to any Tribulation period (a period of divine judgments). The Rapture is when the divine Bridegroom comes for His Bride, and then the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven. This is a spiritual event, and not to be viewed through an earthly lens. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (Mt 25:6)
Christians in the apostolic churches, and even Paul, expected this event in their lifetimes. And some of the Early Church Fathers also held this view. There are many allusions to Christ's "coming" or "appearing" in the epistles which do not relate to the Second Coming.
Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]
https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/
The Rapture was always imminent according to Christ, with absolutely no reference to any Tribulation period (a period of divine judgments). The Rapture is when the divine Bridegroom comes for His Bride, and then the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven. This is a spiritual event, and not to be viewed through an earthly lens. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (Mt 25:6)
Christians in the apostolic churches, and even Paul, expected this event in their lifetimes. And some of the Early Church Fathers also held this view. There are many allusions to Christ's "coming" or "appearing" in the epistles which do not relate to the Second Coming.
Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]
https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/
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Hey Lori. I hope you're well. I'm pre-Trib for the following reason:
Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation is by grace, the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we're saved because we endure through the Great Tribulation that would give us something to boast about and would not be by grace and would be a different means of salvation from those believers who passed on into glory before the Tribulation started. Just IMHO.
Besides who's to say a significant number of Christians could endure the Great Tribulation? In my experience if there's a church service the night of a sporting event on TV or a pop music event in the city then the church is empty. If folks can't give up a ball game for the sake of the Kingdom what makes us think that large numbers of Christians would be willing to give up their heads? Would they even recognize what's happening around them? (for those who are saved during the Great Tribulation the stakes may be different). That's why I'm glad Salvation does not depend on man, but upon God.
Again, my opinion. I'm sure others here may disagree but I hope we can have a good, friendly discussion together.
God Bless All
Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation is by grace, the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we're saved because we endure through the Great Tribulation that would give us something to boast about and would not be by grace and would be a different means of salvation from those believers who passed on into glory before the Tribulation started. Just IMHO.
Besides who's to say a significant number of Christians could endure the Great Tribulation? In my experience if there's a church service the night of a sporting event on TV or a pop music event in the city then the church is empty. If folks can't give up a ball game for the sake of the Kingdom what makes us think that large numbers of Christians would be willing to give up their heads? Would they even recognize what's happening around them? (for those who are saved during the Great Tribulation the stakes may be different). That's why I'm glad Salvation does not depend on man, but upon God.
Again, my opinion. I'm sure others here may disagree but I hope we can have a good, friendly discussion together.
God Bless All
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I am the odd ball. Resurrection/rapture at Rev 14:14-16 at the Reaping of the earth. Same story in Mat 13 with the reaping at the end of the age. After 50 years of study it is the only one that fulfills all of the scriptures. And besides some scriptures were sealed till the end which are now understood in Daniel
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~
I've watched a few movies relative to the so-called Rapture. They all omit a
very showy portion of that future event wherein 2,000 years of Christians
will return from death to join those living so that everyone together can
ascend to meet Christ up in the sky all at one time.
We're talking about an event wherein Christians won't just vanish at the
snap of the fingers like Hollywood typically portrays it, but instead the entire
procedure will be easily observed by everyone all 'round the globe as millions
of Christians of all ages, races, and genders evacuate the earth like a human
Oort cloud.
I expect quite a few Christians will be taken up from interior locations like
office buildings, factories, mines, garages, homes, schools, vehicles, and
malls, etc. Nobody will bump their heads on the way out because, according
to John 20:19 and John 20:26, He who created all things can easily
manipulate the structure of solid objects to allow the human body to pass
thru unimpeded.
Point being: I can't help but wonder about the effect this event is going to
have upon anti-rapture folks; especially when 2,000 years of deceased
Christians suddenly make an appearance alive seemingly out of nowhere.
_
I've watched a few movies relative to the so-called Rapture. They all omit a
very showy portion of that future event wherein 2,000 years of Christians
will return from death to join those living so that everyone together can
ascend to meet Christ up in the sky all at one time.
We're talking about an event wherein Christians won't just vanish at the
snap of the fingers like Hollywood typically portrays it, but instead the entire
procedure will be easily observed by everyone all 'round the globe as millions
of Christians of all ages, races, and genders evacuate the earth like a human
Oort cloud.
I expect quite a few Christians will be taken up from interior locations like
office buildings, factories, mines, garages, homes, schools, vehicles, and
malls, etc. Nobody will bump their heads on the way out because, according
to John 20:19 and John 20:26, He who created all things can easily
manipulate the structure of solid objects to allow the human body to pass
thru unimpeded.
Point being: I can't help but wonder about the effect this event is going to
have upon anti-rapture folks; especially when 2,000 years of deceased
Christians suddenly make an appearance alive seemingly out of nowhere.
_
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The doctrine of a great tribulation comes from here and doesn’t really leave any options but what he’s telling them
“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:5-13, 18-20, 24-27 KJV
abut when we don’t hear what he said we begin to try to interpret things our own way . Jesus is specifically telling his disciples “ you will absolutely go through these things in telling you but stand strong and you’ll be saved . After it’s over I’ll come and gather my people
Im still confused how anyone ever came up with a pre tribulation rapture Jesus soecifically is saying they must go through the tribulation and after it’s finished he’ll return and gather his elect
pre trib comes along when we reject what Jesus said that created the doctrine to begin with
“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:5-13, 18-20, 24-27 KJV
abut when we don’t hear what he said we begin to try to interpret things our own way . Jesus is specifically telling his disciples “ you will absolutely go through these things in telling you but stand strong and you’ll be saved . After it’s over I’ll come and gather my people
Im still confused how anyone ever came up with a pre tribulation rapture Jesus soecifically is saying they must go through the tribulation and after it’s finished he’ll return and gather his elect
pre trib comes along when we reject what Jesus said that created the doctrine to begin with
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dear me
You don't think that the word "first" torpedoes your idea of "imminence"
First must come the rebellion
then the man of rebellion will be revealed
he will set himself to oppose everything so called god [the great tribulation]
he will declare that he is himself God
... he will be slain by the returning Lord.
You don't think that the word "first" torpedoes your idea of "imminence"
First must come the rebellion
then the man of rebellion will be revealed
he will set himself to oppose everything so called god [the great tribulation]
he will declare that he is himself God
... he will be slain by the returning Lord.
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I agree that we will go through the great tribulation but it really cheeses me that you think only the John Waynes of this world will be saved ... those who have true grit.
If the cross [the tribulation], which was totally necessary to resurrection [the rapture] be prophetic pictures, what do you see among the disciples of the Lord. Sleeping when they should be praying, denying all knowledge of Christ even with cursing, they all fled. Only John went all the way.
That is exactly what Jesus forecast for the end times, falling away, betrayal, folks offended.
Our salvation does not depend upon us ... thanks be to God who knows how frail we are.
If the cross [the tribulation], which was totally necessary to resurrection [the rapture] be prophetic pictures, what do you see among the disciples of the Lord. Sleeping when they should be praying, denying all knowledge of Christ even with cursing, they all fled. Only John went all the way.
That is exactly what Jesus forecast for the end times, falling away, betrayal, folks offended.
Our salvation does not depend upon us ... thanks be to God who knows how frail we are.
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Jesus is sitting on the throne of David at the right hand now. Today, without a doubt, and He must reign until every enemy has been made a footstool for His feet. Also a fun fact, there are more Christians on the earth now than there's EVER been, and while we are seeing wickedness everywhere around us, it's hard to deny it's much harder to keep the wickedness hidden than ever before. Also how did Jesus say the kingdom would come? I though He used a seed growing into a mighty tree, or leaven working it's way through a huge measure of dough. I don't know where the idea of overnight perfection is mentioned myself. Do you really think the world is worse now than it's ever been? I don't, societies like ours didn't exist before Jesus. That respected things like "fair trials", and "freedom of speech", the right to education was made with the idea that everyone should be able to read the Bible for themselves. There is SO much these days that is better that we take for granted because we were born into it.
Also people haven't changed and the Bible records this in great detail. Gods people hear Him, obey Him, and prosper, then within a few generations let foreign gods in, everything collapses, His people cry out to Him foe salvation and He comes. Wash rinse repeat. That's what I see in front of me these days. I also hear murmurs of people getting fed up with it now. Anyway I understand how people see things that way. Especially when they've been taught nothing but, "it's all going to hell in a handbasket anyway" their whole lives. I don't believe that. I believe Jesus is 100% victorious over everything now, He is King today, and has been everyday since all authority in heaven and on earth was granted to Him and He ascended and took His seat on the throne as promised. Again, I understand 100% why this is the outlier view and why I'm scoffed at when I say these things. I was taught pre-trib from my first visit to church. Just after learning more and reading for myself and letting the scripture talk without being told what it means. Researching other viewpoints on the subject and listening to it debated, I could only conclude that a "preterist post-Mill" framework fit His word better than any other option I've heard, funny enough I found the futurist pre-tribulation view needed the most "added to the text" material to even explain it. Let me clarify what I mean, you need a graph, chart, timelines, and a guru to explain to you the pre-trib view.
I find the preterist post-Mill view lines up with the plain scripture I read without the need for anything extra on a different level than the other options I looked at. Now I'm not declaring this as gospel fact or anything, but just giving my opinion and the way I see it, and why I don't agree with "pre-trib", or think the things in Mat. 24 are future to us.
Also people haven't changed and the Bible records this in great detail. Gods people hear Him, obey Him, and prosper, then within a few generations let foreign gods in, everything collapses, His people cry out to Him foe salvation and He comes. Wash rinse repeat. That's what I see in front of me these days. I also hear murmurs of people getting fed up with it now. Anyway I understand how people see things that way. Especially when they've been taught nothing but, "it's all going to hell in a handbasket anyway" their whole lives. I don't believe that. I believe Jesus is 100% victorious over everything now, He is King today, and has been everyday since all authority in heaven and on earth was granted to Him and He ascended and took His seat on the throne as promised. Again, I understand 100% why this is the outlier view and why I'm scoffed at when I say these things. I was taught pre-trib from my first visit to church. Just after learning more and reading for myself and letting the scripture talk without being told what it means. Researching other viewpoints on the subject and listening to it debated, I could only conclude that a "preterist post-Mill" framework fit His word better than any other option I've heard, funny enough I found the futurist pre-tribulation view needed the most "added to the text" material to even explain it. Let me clarify what I mean, you need a graph, chart, timelines, and a guru to explain to you the pre-trib view.
I find the preterist post-Mill view lines up with the plain scripture I read without the need for anything extra on a different level than the other options I looked at. Now I'm not declaring this as gospel fact or anything, but just giving my opinion and the way I see it, and why I don't agree with "pre-trib", or think the things in Mat. 24 are future to us.
so here we are again with the great confusion of rapture-tribulation. folks, the Holy Spirit could not have made it any more simple than He did. (the H.S. authored the Bible). study & learn 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18! these verse are a simple layout. we Christians WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITH JESUS BEFORE the start of the 70th week of Daniel, which is the great tribulation, in other words. add to that: Romans 5:8,9 1st Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9, for those who believe the tribulation will be 1st, what's the sense in being saved? what are you saved from? nothing is the answer. you might as well be an atheist. what sense does it make for Christians & atheists to go thru the tribulation? none at all! if you are having trouble learning this, apply & learn 2nd Timothy 2:7 & 15 & John 16:13 & John 14:26 to the above verses! supplemental: this all reminds me of people who say they are born again Christians but never know if they are saved. apply the same ?'s: "what's the sense in being saved in the 1st place? "who or what is going to tell you when you are saved or if you are saved"? to that, learn: 1st John 5:10 & 13!!! blessings to all.
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