Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

When it says God will not blot our name out?

The word for "name" back then was interchangeable for the meaning of "title."

Those written in the book have their eternal "title" written in.
For God wants all of us to reign with Jesus. We have been given a title to reign with.

Now? If someone's name is blotted out?
They will be denied their crown/title to reign with Christ in His kingdom.
They will not lose their salvation just the same.

I thank God for my pastor who exegeted that passage every time this issue that confuses many pops up.

Here is one passage that shows how we can not lose our salvation,
but surely can lose our rewards that God intended for us to have.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. ​

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames.​

Note.....

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames.​

We can lose our "name/title" (to reign with Christ)..... But, we will not lose our salvation!

The word name was also used for meaning title...

Here is an example..

"And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: ​

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. " Rev 19:16​

​

That name is actually his "Title!"


grace and peace .................

 

[PaulThomson]

There are ample clear verses which leave no doubt that, from Gods perspective the elect were already saved before the world was made. I appreciate it looks different to us from a human viewpoint.

God sees the whole of human history, from the beginning to the end as if it had already reached the end. So, some may say God looked down the corridors of time and saw those who would believe the gospel and those who would reject it.

Others will read it differently and say God predestined everything to playout according to His predetermined will. The Church will remain divided over this issue, because one could approach it from different angles and arrive at a different interpretation.

Since theologians have been debating it for 500 years and made no progress, suggests to me that everyone will hold firmly to their view and they won't budge no matter what.

None of what you stated here is clearly stated in scripture. The two options you have offered is a false dichotomy, since they are not the only options that one can arrive. Based only on the content of scripture, one can see other options. Your two options are metaphysical theories overlaid upon scripture to explain scripture in a way that accommodates platonist concepts. Maybe it is not appropriate to impose Plato's categories on Yahweh. Can you show scripture exegeted in its context that clearly states that either of those two theories describes the way God predicts future events and brings to pass His plans?

 

[Magenta]

... he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, but
I will confess his name before My Father and His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says...

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I see God acting like an attorney who knows the answers but questioning someone so they admit it themselves in Genesis 3.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There' always more than one way to interpret the scriptures, many factors come into play. It's never a simple yes or no deal

Not so. Scripture is generally plain and straightforward.

 

[PaulThomson]

At this stage I'm just going to say it's in genesis 3

We can wait.... without baited breath... on not on the edge of our seats.

 

[Mem]

This wording differs depending on the translation
Literal Standard Version
And all who are dwelling on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Scroll of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
English Standard Version
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

one has the prepositional clause, "before the foundation of the world" modifying the verb written, and the other has it modifying the verb slain.

 

[Genez]

. Read genesis 3 and see if you can spot where God did not know what Adam or eve or where doing and make the suggestion. If your brave enough, to come out of doctrine briefly.

You have shown that you can have an over simplified view of what is written.

So, please show us and stop being a coward about it.

Keep in mind. Much of the dialogue for the Lord in Genesis 3 was relating to the angels who were watching what took place in the Garden which for them was playing out like a suspenseful movie. A movie having things God was teaching the angels certain principles with.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

There are ample clear verses which leave no doubt that, from Gods perspective the elect were already saved before the world was made. I appreciate it looks different to us from a human viewpoint.

God sees the whole of human history, from the beginning to the end as if it had already reached the end. So, some may say God looked down the corridors of time and saw those who would believe the gospel and those who would reject it.

Others will read it differently and say God predestined everything to playout according to His predetermined will. The Church will remain divided over this issue, because one could approach it from different angles and arrive at a different interpretation.

Since theologians have been debating it for 500 years and made no progress, suggests to me that everyone will hold firmly to their view and they won't budge no matter what.

Only 1 group of people are shown in Revelation 13 (those who worship the Beast) to have never been written in the Book of Life.
If there's others, can you show me?

 

[PaulThomson]

I agree with all of that, but we still have the problem of the many different interpretations to deal with. Most of the people I've spoken to in various denominations told me that their views and understanding have changed a lot over the years. That's why so many move to other Churches where the Minister preaches the version they agree with.

Every denomination claims their interpretation is Biblically correct, the problem for the ordinary Christian is knowing who to believe. Since there are so many opposing views on so many Bible doctrines. There are many controversial doctrines such as predestination, which the average Christian struggles to chose a side and confidentially accept as accurate.

Most people don't have the time to go to seminary and devote years to study the Bible. There's so much to learn, the ordinary Christian has no choice other than to listen to what theologians say and go with those which sound the best to them. It's an individual choice which everyone has to make on their own.

The Church is not united, because of all the different views and interpretations. I can't see how they could ever be reconciled, whilst nobody is willing to tolerate opposing views.

The aim of Christian teaching IS NOT to arrive at a perfect set of truth claims about God and man. It is to be in the process of being transformed into a person more like Jesus Christ. People get hung up on the former and neglect the latter. That is not wise.

 

[PaulThomson]

However after the fall it was clear he knew what they where going to do next.

Is that why God regretted making man because He discovered he was capable of fr more wickedness than God Had expected, and destroyed all but eight?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You have shown that you can have an over simplified view of what is written.

So, please show us and stop being a coward about it.

Keep in mind. Much of the dialogue for the Lord in Genesis 3 was relating to the angels who were watching what took place in the Garden which for them was playing out like a suspenseful movie. A movie having things God was teaching the angels certain principles with.

Listen buddy what comes around goes around.

What's gone as been an Gone.

Now read genesis 3 and make a suggestion, Where did God not know what Adam and Eve where doing.

Step out of your closet, go on be brave 😊

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes absolutely, John 6:37-40

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The above verses indicate that those God choose will come to the Lord Jesus. Their salvation is sure because the Lord will certainly not cast them out.

When God chose His elect, the world wasn't created yet, so of 'course it included those yet to be born

Your proof text does not even mention "chosen/elect." So how can it possibly show that "those God choose will come to the Lord Jesus. "
The elect God chose before the creation of the world was His Son. When does the Bible say a person becomes "in Him"?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

My Bible says God is the only God who knows the End from the Beginning. How is it possible to think God did not know what Adam was doing or anyone else including Satan who fell?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Is that why God regretted making man because He discovered he was capable of fr more wickedness than God Had expected, and destroyed all but eight?

I'm still waiting for you one of you to be brave and step out of your closet.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Please try exegeting at least one of those verses in context to show what you think they mean. Merely quoting verses and then saying "They mean my opinion", is not a persuasive argument.

they all say God's will lives in you whether saved or unsaved.

That is not an exegesis of any text. That is merely what is called a "bald assertion".

A bald assertion is a statement used in marketing, advertising or promotions by a company without proof or evidence of truth. An example of such advertising practices is when a company claims their product is the best on the market.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

1. God predestined Jesus to be how we are saved before He ever began creation.
2. He purposely had the emblem of Christ, the Tree of Life in the Garden with Adam.
3. He knows the End from the Beginning.

To think God never knew something is illogical.

 

[Charlie_2024]

But every one gets chosen to have a seed put in them.

Is everyone in the book of life when the seed is first put into them.

The same seed either saves a person or it doesn't.

I don't think the parable of the Seed and the Sower, is related to the book of life. I think that parable describes the various ways people respond to the gospel message

 

[PaulThomson]

1. God predestined Jesus to be how we are saved before He ever began creation.
2. He purposely had the emblem of Christ, the Tree of Life in the Garden with Adam.
3. He knows the End from the Beginning.

To think God never knew something is illogical.

To think that "knowing the end from the beginning" must mean "knowing every detail of the end from the beginning" is not logical.
To think that God never knew something is illogical, is itself illogical.

 

[Mem]

I'm still waiting for you one of you to be brave and step out of your closet.

I'm assuming you are thinking of the verses where God called out to Adam, "...Where are you?" and "Have you eaten from the tree....?"