Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
2,105
276
83
The word God used for this particular snake with Eve is called Nāḥāš. Nāḥāš means fortune telling/divination, which that is what the serpent did when he told Eve, 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.' < God even confirms that is what Satan did, Fortune told/Divinated Eve (22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil).

So God knew the snake was Evil, which is Satan, and used a term only used for snake defined as fortune telling/divination.

No other snake has been called this. So we know it is Satan by the word Nāḥāš.

And if you read Genesis 3, God uses the term "Nāḥāš" BEFORE Satan ever speaks to Eve.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent "Nāḥāš" was more subtle...
So God is making it clear before the serpent speaks this is Satan.
I understand that the primary root of "Nāḥāš" is to whisper, hence it BECAME used for snakes and mediums. So maybe the reason Genesis refers to satan as a whisperer is because He was speaking to Eve hoping to keep his conversation away from God's ears. maybe he used a snake to do so, because snakes whisper or hiss.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,302
5,484
113
62
And my contention is your understanding of the word fair is unbiblical so how the heck can I find what isn't biblical in the Bible?

If you want verses according to it's correct meaning, happy to oblige.
It's a very kind offer. Thanks.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
In school... Were you that kid that the teacher would send to the principles office?

Well at least we know you are not serious about the Word of God at this time in your life.
very nice of you to say so, thankyou very much 😊
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
He chose us before the foundation of the world, could us all meas His chose how he could create us in his image, to have characteristics like God.

God



"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."


Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............
come on be brave,

Who is the US here, in both scriptures.

He chose us before the foundation of the world, could us also mean He chose how he would create us in his image, to have characteristics like God.

God said let us make man in our image God said

Well who is the us.

Well foundations could also mean heaven.

In the beginning he created the heavens, (the foundations) and then the earth 😊

So before he chose how to create man in an image he talked it through with the foundations ( the heavens).

You know the part where God said let us make man in our image.

Well who is the US

And no it is not the USA 😊
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
In school... Were you that kid that the teacher would send to the principles office?

Well at least we know you are not serious about the Word of God at this time in your life.
I like the nicer things in life 😊
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
Of course that Hebrew was in the Torah. Where else do you think it came from?
Westminster Leningrad Codex (Gen 3:1)
וְהַנָּחָשׁ֙ הָיָ֣ה עָר֔וּם מִכֹּל֙ חַיַּ֣ת הַשָּׂדֶ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשָׂ֖ה יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ אֶל־הָ֣אִשָּׁ֔ה אַ֚ף כִּֽי־אָמַ֣ר אֱלֹהִ֔ים לֹ֣א תֹֽאכְל֔וּ מִכֹּ֖ל עֵ֥ץ הַגָּֽן׃
וְהַנָּחָשׁ֙ (wə-han-nā-ḥāš) = now the serpent

And according to you the Hebrew scholars who gave us the English equivalent were ignorant.

NASB Translation
serpent (24), serpent's (2), serpents (2), snake (1).
Where are the fortune tellers in this?
I take it you were not taught as a young boy the Torah from synagogue in the way God told Moses.
And it's not about fortune telling/divination/witchcraft, it's about the serpent in Genesis 3 represents that form of evil.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
oh well that confirms your wonderful Hebrew Gods of interpretation then

The serpent was telling somebody a fortune was it not.

If I got my crystal ball out and said get give me some money and you will surely be rich after I give you some advice.

Would that make me a fortune teller also, and would that make me satan.

Do you see how absurd your Hebrew God is.


.
I take it you were not taught as a young boy the Torah from synagogue in the way God told Moses.
And it's not about fortune telling/divination/witchcraft, it's about the serpent in Genesis 3 represents that form of evil.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
Kind of interesting.God really wants us to be as God. But I think knowing good and evil may also bring blindness Instead of opening eyes.
But according to fortune telling,The consequences of eating it are part of it.
But I don't agree with one thing,they can be as god without eating that fruit.
You mean from verse 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.' ?

I don't think He meant they were literally like God, but they now had this form of understanding about "good and evil" that they did not have before.

Or are you addressing the living forever part?
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
I take it you were not taught as a young boy the Torah from synagogue in the way God told Moses.
And it's not about fortune telling/divination/witchcraft, it's about the serpent in Genesis 3 represents that form of evil.
when God said let us make man in our image who was the us.

Do you understand It was not Just God who decided how man should be created in his image 🤔.

This then allows for the mistakes in the Garden of eden

 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
I understand that the primary root of "Nāḥāš" is to whisper, hence it BECAME used for snakes and mediums. So maybe the reason Genesis refers to satan as a whisperer is because He was speaking to Eve hoping to keep his conversation away from God's ears. maybe he used a snake to do so, because snakes whisper or hiss.
I take it you were not taught as a young boy the Torah from synagogue in the way God told Moses.
And it's not about fortune telling/divination/witchcraft, it's about the serpent in Genesis 3 represents that form of evil.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
when God said let us make man in our image who was the us.

Do you understand It was not Just God who decided how man should be created in his image 🤔.

This then allows for the mistakes in the Garden of eden
God is not presenting a question. He is informing what is going to be done in verse 26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;

And in verse 27 God does what He informed He would be doing 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him;

Notice verse 27 His OWN Image, the image of God.
So God only made man in His image and NO ONE else.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
God is not presenting a question. He is informing what is going to be done in verse 26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;

And in verse 27 God does what He informed He would be doing 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him;

Notice verse 27 His OWN Image, the image of God.
So God only made man in His image and NO ONE else.
yep that one of more than person deciding how man should not be created, along with God creating man in his present time also gets rejected, along with God not wanting to watch mans every move in the Garden also gets rejected.

You do realise that God had means and ways of knowing every man's move in the garden, without having to know what they would do before they did it.


But then all this would be rejected because we have hundreds of Calvinists following the doctrine of one man.

Well you see you can be true is some part knowing God, but it's impossible to know God in full.

Scripture confirms the secrets belong to God. 😊

 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
yep that one of more than person deciding how man should not be created, along with God creating man in his present time also gets rejected, along with God not wanting to watch mans every move in the Garden also gets rejected.

You do realise that God had means and ways of knowing every man's move in the garden, without having to know what they would do before they did it.


But then all this would be rejected because we have hundreds of Calvinists following the doctrine of one man.

Well you see you can be true is some part knowing God, but it's impossible to know God in full.

Scripture confirms the secrets belong to God. 😊
God knew what Adam would do because He is omniscient and omnipresent. And God could have had His Angels there watching.

Think about a miracle. It happens for us in real time. But God knew it would happen and had Angels in place to perform the miracle before it ever was needed. God is the SAME yesterday, today, forever. He never changes. So stop acting like He does.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,131
1,761
113
Ephesians 6:12 tells us there is a struggle against the spiritual forces in the heavenly realms, and therefore we must take up the full armor of God in order that you may be able to withstand (Ephesians 6:13). And 1 Corinthians 2 spiritual wisdom that God reveals to us by the Spirit, which the carnal man cannot hear but is received by the spiritual man. And, having received this wisdom into his own spirit, the spiritual man becomes stronger as the natural man progressively becomes weaker. But if he does not receive this wisdom, which from the Spirit, of which intention is to preserve him, completely, he is left defenseless to withstand the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms, and these forces' aim is to destroy him, completely.

Are we making any progress in agreement yet?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
Ephesians 6:12 tells us there is a struggle against the spiritual forces in the heavenly realms, and therefore we must take up the full armor of God in order that you may be able to withstand (Ephesians 6:13).
Most of us live in cities or country areas but not far from a city that we're familiar with. And once we enter that city we know this area is known for drugs, this area for prostitution, this area has high crime, this area is wealthy, and so forth. How do you think these areas within every city become a stronghold of evil and some areas are free from it? These are battle grounds Christians should be ruling. Greater is He in me than the one in the world. Christians really haven't done their jobs at all, have they?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,131
1,761
113
Most of us live in cities or country areas but not far from a city that we're familiar with. And once we enter that city we know this area is known for drugs, this area for prostitution, this area has high crime, this area is wealthy, and so forth. How do you think these areas within every city become a stronghold of evil and some areas are free from it? These are battle grounds Christians should be ruling. Greater is He in me than the one in the world. Christians really haven't done their jobs at all, have they?
All anyone can do is stand, and we can only do that individually, as a part in the whole that is.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,821
13,438
113
when God said let us make man in our image who was the us.
God and the other members of the divine council.

Do you understand It was not Just God who decided how man should be created in his image 🤔.
Do you understand that God was sharing His plan with the members of the divine council, and not sharing the design process?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
3,147
535
113
All anyone can do is stand, and we can only do that individually, as a part in the whole that is.
Agreed!
If we had no denominations and everyone just believed in the Gospel I bet every city around the world could be won. Denominations is the worse thing to ever happen.