When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

[tylerbones1313]

------------For the General Audience. We have so much error rampant through this forum. Hopefully every believer listens.------------

Believers have a responsibility to point out error and guide others towards truth as part of their commitment to love, truth, and the spiritual well-being of the community. This responsibility is rooted in the broader biblical commands to love one's neighbor, to pursue righteousness, and to be agents of reconciliation and truth in the world. Several passages throughout the New Testament underscore this aspect of Christian duty: (We are called to love one another even when we disagree. Perhaps we can take a step back and approach ALL conversation with a spirit of humility and respect. While we may have different interpretations (The Word of God is the only true Interpretation), it's important to remember that God calls us to unity and love. Let's focus on those shared values in ALL discussions.)

Galatians 6:1 (NKJV): "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." This verse emphasizes the responsibility of believers to help restore those who have fallen into sin. The approach should be characterized by gentleness and self-awareness, highlighting the importance of humility and care in correcting others.
Matthew 18:15-17 (NKJV): "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Here, Jesus provides a process for addressing sin within the community, emphasizing the importance of private correction and the goal of reconciliation. It shows a structured approach to pointing out error, with the ultimate aim of restoration.
2 Timothy 4:2 (NKJV): "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." Paul instructs Timothy—and by extension, all believers—to be diligent in teaching the truth of God's Word, which includes correcting errors and encouraging right living. This exhortation underscores the role of Scripture in guiding the process of correction and the need for patience and dedication in this task.
James 5:19-20 (NKJV): "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." James highlights the life-saving impact of correcting error and guiding someone back to the truth. It presents the act of pointing out error as an expression of care and concern for the spiritual state of others.

with meekness and fear: The manner in which believers are to defend their faith is critically important. "Meekness" suggests gentleness and humility, indicating that our defense should not be aggressive or confrontational but characterized by the humility that comes from understanding that our faith is a gift from God. "Fear" in this context refers to a deep respect or reverence for God, reminding believers that their ultimate accountability is to Him. This respectful approach ensures that the conversation about faith honors God and respects the dignity of the person asking.

These passages collectively illustrate that believers are indeed called to lovingly and carefully address error within the community, always aiming for the restoration and spiritual health of the individual. This responsibility is carried out within the context of a commitment to truth, love, humility, and the ultimate goal of salvation. It's important that such correction is done in a spirit of gentleness, respect, and love, reflecting the character of Christ.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Please read all this carefully when considering this discussion. I want everything to be done with true humility and Scriptural and verifiable research. Thank You and God Bless.

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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I Will kick it off with this:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The phrase "I am" is significant because it echoes a name for God used in the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 3:14). When God revealed himself to Moses through a burning bush, he said "I am that I am" (or "I AM WHO I AM") This emphasizes God's self-existence and eternal nature.

Here, Jesus is not simply saying that He is older than Abraham. This is not just a claim to pre-existence before birth. He does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was” or “I was there before Abraham.” Jesus uses a particular formulation that is God’s name in the Old Testament as revealed to Moses at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name in case the Israelites inquired who had sent him. God replied, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).

The significance and the perceived audacity of Jesus’ proclamation can be found in the response of the people who heard Him say it: “At this, they picked up stones to stone him” (John 8:59). From their response, we can see that they considered Jesus’ statement to be blasphemy.

In all the other things that Jesus had said to them, nothing caused them to take up stones to stone Him. It was not until he claimed to be “I AM,” the God of the Old Testament, that they attempted to stone Him. For a mere mortal or even some sort of heavenly being to claim to be I AM was blasphemy, for that name can only be used of God. Jesus is claiming not only to exist before Abraham, but to be self-existent before Abraham—something that is true of God and God alone.

 

[Magenta]

In all the other things that Jesus had said to them, nothing caused them to take up stones to stone Him.
It was not until he claimed to be “I AM,” the God of the Old Testament, that they attempted to stone Him.
For a mere mortal or even some sort of heavenly being to claim to be I AM was blasphemy, for that name
can only be used of God. Jesus is claiming not only to exist before Abraham, but to be self-existent before
Abraham—something that is true of God and God alone.

They did try to throw Him off a cliff...

From Luke 44 Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath. And when He stood up to read, 17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20 Then He rolled up the scroll, returned it to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the
synagogue were fixed on Him, 21 and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of Him and marveled at the gracious words that came from His lips. “Isn’t this the son of Joseph?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to Me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!
Do here in Your hometown what we have heard that You did in Capernaum.’ ”

24 Then He added, “Truly I tell you, no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 But I tell you truthfully that there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and great famine swept over all the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to the widow of Zarephath in Sidon. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet. Yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28 On hearing this, all the people in the synagogue were enraged. 29 They got up, drove Him
out of the town, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to
throw Him over the cliff. 30 But Jesus passed through the crowd and went on His way.

Luke 4:18-19

 

[Nehemiah6]

When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

Neither of your two original posts actually address this. Since you use the word "disrupt" it would seem that you are Anti-Trinitarian. But you have not actually stated your position on the Trinity (which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). And "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ. The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine.

 

[lovejoypeaceetc]

I guess when the disciples saw Jesus praying? Then there must be someone who is God but who is not Jesus.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Neither of your two original posts actually address this. Since you use the word "disrupt" it would seem that you are Anti-Trinitarian. But you have not actually stated your position on the Trinity (which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). And "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ. The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine.

And "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ.

The statement that "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ is not accurate from both a historical and biblical perspective. Judaism as a religion predates Christianity by thousands of years, with its roots going back to the ancient Israelites and their covenant with God as depicted in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), which includes the Torah (Pentateuch), the Prophets (Nevi'im), and the Writings (Ketuvim). This body of religious texts and laws defined Jewish belief and practice long before the birth of Jesus Christ.

The emergence of Christianity in the 1st century CE occurred within the context of Second Temple Judaism. Jesus, his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews who initially sought to reform and reinterpret Jewish beliefs and practices. Over time, as Christianity spread beyond Jewish communities and embraced Gentiles, it developed its distinct beliefs, practices, and identity, leading to the gradual separation of Christianity from Judaism.

Thus, rather than Judaism beginning after the rejection of Christ, it is more accurate to say that Christianity emerged from within the Jewish tradition as a new religious movement that eventually differentiated itself in significant ways. Both religions share common roots, but each has a unique history and set of beliefs that developed over centuries.

The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine.

The statement that "The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine" is not accurate according to traditional Jewish interpretation and historical rabbinical teachings.

First, the concept of the Holy Trinity—as understood in mainstream Christian theology as the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit being three persons in one Godhead—is not explicitly presented in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible). The Hebrew Bible emphasizes the oneness of God, most famously in the Shema, a foundational prayer in Judaism found in Deuteronomy 6:4, which declares, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Jewish interpretation historically has understood God's nature as strictly monotheistic, without division into distinct persons as in the concept of the Trinity.

While Christians may interpret certain Old Testament passages as allusions to the Trinity, these interpretations are through a Christian theological lens and are not in line with traditional Jewish thought or exegesis. For example, passages where God speaks in the plural (e.g., Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our image...") have been interpreted by Jewish scholars in various ways that do not imply a Trinitarian concept, such as God consulting with the heavenly court or using a majestic plural.

Second, regarding the Messiah, traditional Jewish beliefs do not hold that the Messiah would be divine. Jewish messianic expectations are centered on a future human leader, a descendant of King David, who will reign during an era of peace and divine favor, restoring the Jewish people to their homeland and rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem. The divinity of the Messiah is a concept that diverges significantly from Jewish teachings.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I guess when the disciples saw Jesus praying? Then there must be someone who is God but who is not Jesus.

Yes true. We have to also remember when Jesus' is acting from His Human or Divine nature. As a man he need to pray and to be our example of how to live. He always existed from eternity past to eternity future, Just at one point in history He became Man.

 

[NightTwister]

Scripture clearly reveals the Trinity. That you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Trinitarians aren't adding to Scripture, rather you are taking away.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Thus, rather than Judaism beginning after the rejection of Christ, it is more accurate to say that Christianity emerged from within the Jewish tradition as a new religious movement that eventually differentiated itself in significant ways. Both religions share common roots, but each has a unique history and set of beliefs that developed over centuries.

Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion. The Jews refused to believe He was the fulfillment of the OT, He is the high priest, there is no need for sacrifices. Jesus came to fulfill. But the Jews rejected their Messiah. That is why there was a split and two religions were the result.

The statement that "The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine" is not accurate according to traditional Jewish interpretation and historical rabbinical teachings.
First, the concept of the Holy Trinity—as understood in mainstream Christian theology as the Father,
Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit being three persons in one Godhead—is not explicitly presented in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible).

Did they not read Psalms,
"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."?

Or

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.

Of his birth
Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace, there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

Daniel 7:13-14
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Second, regarding the Messiah, traditional Jewish beliefs do not hold that the Messiah would be divine. Jewish messianic expectations are centered on a future human leader, a descendant of King David, who will reign during an era of peace and divine favor, restoring the Jewish people to their homeland and rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem. The divinity of the Messiah is a concept that diverges significantly from Jewish teachings.

Well Jesus was certainly clear about who He was and what He had come to do. It's to bad that the Jews did not listen, much heartache has happened because they did not hear Him and believe.

 

[Dino246]

There is evidence in the Old Testament of the "dual-entity" nature of God, and the rabbis were uncomfortably aware of this. I'll provide some more background later.

 

[iamsoandso]

The statement that "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ is not accurate from both a historical and biblical perspective. Judaism as a religion predates Christianity by thousands of years, with its roots going back to the ancient Israelites and their covenant with God as depicted in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), which includes the Torah (Pentateuch), the Prophets (Nevi'im), and the Writings (Ketuvim). This body of religious texts and laws defined Jewish belief and practice long before the birth of Jesus Christ.

The emergence of Christianity in the 1st century CE occurred within the context of Second Temple Judaism. Jesus, his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews who initially sought to reform and reinterpret Jewish beliefs and practices. Over time, as Christianity spread beyond Jewish communities and embraced Gentiles, it developed its distinct beliefs, practices, and identity, leading to the gradual separation of Christianity from Judaism.

Thus, rather than Judaism beginning after the rejection of Christ, it is more accurate to say that Christianity emerged from within the Jewish tradition as a new religious movement that eventually differentiated itself in significant ways. Both religions share common roots, but each has a unique history and set of beliefs that developed over centuries.


The statement that "The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine" is not accurate according to traditional Jewish interpretation and historical rabbinical teachings.

First, the concept of the Holy Trinity—as understood in mainstream Christian theology as the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit being three persons in one Godhead—is not explicitly presented in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible). The Hebrew Bible emphasizes the oneness of God, most famously in the Shema, a foundational prayer in Judaism found in Deuteronomy 6:4, which declares, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Jewish interpretation historically has understood God's nature as strictly monotheistic, without division into distinct persons as in the concept of the Trinity.

While Christians may interpret certain Old Testament passages as allusions to the Trinity, these interpretations are through a Christian theological lens and are not in line with traditional Jewish thought or exegesis. For example, passages where God speaks in the plural (e.g., Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our image...") have been interpreted by Jewish scholars in various ways that do not imply a Trinitarian concept, such as God consulting with the heavenly court or using a majestic plural.

Second, regarding the Messiah, traditional Jewish beliefs do not hold that the Messiah would be divine. Jewish messianic expectations are centered on a future human leader, a descendant of King David, who will reign during an era of peace and divine favor, restoring the Jewish people to their homeland and rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem. The divinity of the Messiah is a concept that diverges significantly from Jewish teachings.

Your saying monotheism but what your explaining is henotheism.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Your saying monotheism but what your explaining is henotheism.

Tell me exactly what you mean?

 

[iamsoandso]

Tell me exactly what you mean?

In you example of Genesis 1:26 is there a majestic plural of god's(more than one) being counseled, but only one that is to be worshiped(I Am)? If so this is henotheism in that it sees multiple creators yet only one permitted to be worshiped. In monotheism no other God exist but the one God.

 

[Mem]

Abraham was aware of the Trinity, He called the Three Angels of the LORD, "My LORD," and They answered.

 

[tylerbones1313]

In you example of Genesis 1:26 is there a majestic plural of god's(more than one) being counseled, but only one that is to be worshiped(I Am)? If so this is henotheism in that it sees multiple creators yet only one permitted to be worshiped. In monotheism no other God exist but the one God.

With the heavenly host of Angels. Talking in general, but He is the Only God and Creator.

 

[iamsoandso]

With the heavenly host of Angels. Talking in general, but He is the Only God and Creator.

Are you meaning Jesus?

 

[Magenta]

The emergence of Christianity in the 1st century CE occurred within the context of Second Temple Judaism. Jesus,
his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews who initially sought to reform and reinterpret Jewish beliefs
and practices. Over time, as Christianity spread beyond Jewish communities and embraced Gentiles, it developed
its distinct beliefs, practices, and identity, leading to the gradual separation of Christianity from Judaism.

The separation of Christianity from Judaism saw sharp changes rather immediately, especially as regards
to things like temple sacrifices, circumcision, and the Jews' idea of whom it was okay to consort with.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Are you meaning Jesus?

No because the Humanity of God wasn't revealed to the world yet. Only the image in the mind of God.

 

[tylerbones1313]

No one has officially answered the Title of the Thread. If you do please site Scripture or historical reference.

 

[iamsoandso]

No because the Humanity of God wasn't revealed to the world yet. Only the image in the mind of God.

And there you have it henotheism,,,,have a nice day.