Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

I know this will not be well-received, but he died for Israel, and god-fearers who were pro-israel.

Would you believe that Jesus died for the Israel of God? (Now there's a can of worms.)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

On the other hand, according to Paul in Gal 1:12, he neither received the gospel from any man, nor was he taught it. He received it by direct revelation from Jesus, the same as all the other apostles did. But Heb 2:3 is essentially saying that salvation was received from (confirmed by) other men.

Interestingly, when Paul made his first trip to Jerusalem after his conversion, there is no mention whatsoever that he either sought confirmation from the disciples or that the disciples offered confirmation (Act 9:26-30). But this passage does say that Paul saw Jesus and Jesus had spoken to him.

As I just recently stated, this direct revelation from the Lord was a prerequisite for apostleship just as being an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus was!

This is what Paul said, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here's Hebrews 2:3... which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard

Paul learned by revelation, Disciples HEARD directly from Jesus.

The 2 are not even close to being the same thing.

 

[7thMoon]

Would you believe that Jesus died for the Israel of God? (Now there's a can of worms.)

Israel is not condemned in the New Testament either. But Judah is cursed both by mouth and into future punishment.

 

[Rufus]

The Jews, to who the audience in Hebrews is directed to.

And who were those "who heard him" in Heb 2:3?

 

[Rufus]

This is what Paul said, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here's Hebrews 2:3... which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard

Paul learned by revelation, Disciples HEARD directly from Jesus.

The 2 are not even close to being the same thing.

What do you think Revelation is if not revelation by Jesus? In fact, the entire NT is revelation by Christ, come to think of it! So, you're saying that revelation of Christ or by Christ is inferior to in-person teaching by Christ? Why would that be?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What do you think Revelation is if not revelation by Jesus? In fact, the entire NT is revelation by Christ, come to think of it! So, you're saying that revelation of Christ or by Christ is inferior to in-person teaching by Christ? Why would that be?

The Gospels and most of what Peter and John wrote are what they heard Jesus say in person + inspired by the Holy Spirit. The others are Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Look what Paul continues to say after he tells us about his revelation.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.

15 days with Peter's teaching.

 

[Cameron143]

It doesn't say what you claim definitely. It says, ... Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts.

This is what Paul said, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here's Hebrews 2:3... which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard

Paul learned by revelation, Disciples HEARD directly from Jesus.

The 2 are not even close to being the same thing.

Who was the revelation given by?

 

[Magenta]

On the other hand, according to Paul in Gal 1:12, he neither received the gospel from any man, nor was he taught it. He received it by direct revelation from Jesus, the same as all the other apostles did. But Heb 2:3 is essentially saying that salvation was received from (confirmed by) other men.

Interestingly, when Paul made his first trip to Jerusalem after his conversion, there is no mention whatsoever that he either sought confirmation from the disciples or that the disciples offered confirmation (Act 9:26-30). But this passage does say that Paul saw Jesus and Jesus had spoken to him.

As I just recently stated, this direct revelation from the Lord was a prerequisite for apostleship just as being an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus was!

Hebrews 2:3 still doesn't say what you claim. Nor does anyone need to seek confirmation in order to receive it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Who was the revelation given by?

Jesus, but Rufus ignored one fact that makes Hebrew 2:3 as I have presented it.

Look what Paul continues to say after he tells us about his revelation.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.

Paul had 15 days with Peter's teaching.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus, but Rufus ignored one fact that makes Hebrew 2:3 as I have presented it.

Look what Paul continues to say after he tells us about his revelation.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.

Paul had 15 days with Peter's teaching.

Paul didn't go to anyone but Jesus to receive teaching. Paul actually had to correct Peter at one point and Peter said at one point that Paul's writing was hard to understand.
Paul was much more knowledgeable of the scripture and this is likely why God used him to write so much of the New Testament.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Paul didn't go to anyone but Jesus to receive teaching. Paul actually had to correct Peter at one point and Peter said at one point that Paul's writing was hard to understand.
Paul was much more knowledgeable of the scripture and this is likely why God used him to write so much of the New Testament.

He was more knowledgeable with the Tanakh and Law. He only corrected Peter when Peter hid that he had been eating and spending time with the Gentiles. But the Salvation Jesus taught to His disciples was like Paul said in Hebrews 2:3 ... which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard

15 days with Peter would confirm what Jesus said.

 

[Magenta]

Paul didn't go to anyone but Jesus to receive teaching.

The Hebrews verse given for consideration says absolutely zero about teaching.

 

[Magenta]

Paul was much more knowledgeable of the scripture and this is likely why God used him to write so much of the New Testament.

Pharisees were well versed in the law. I think Paul better understood Jesus' role in relation to it.

Paul wrote far more about grace than any other Bible writer.

 

[Cameron143]

He was more knowledgeable with the Tanakh and Law. He only corrected Peter when Peter hid that he had been eating and spending time with the Gentiles. But the Salvation Jesus taught to His disciples was like Paul said in Hebrews 2:3 ... which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard

15 days with Peter would confirm what Jesus said.

Your opinion of Paul is far too small. It was his knowledge of the Old Testament that allowed him to explain the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant because it was there all along. It was merely concealed.
And confirmation isn't teaching someone. It's merely reinforcing what they already knew and professed. Peter did not have superior understanding than Paul. This is easily discernable by merely reading what each wrote.

 

[Magenta]

And confirmation isn't teaching someone.

You need to tell Rufus that, as it was his claim.

 

[Cameron143]

You need to tell Rufus that, as it was his claim.

I'm sure he'd receive it better from you.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Your opinion of Paul is far too small. It was his knowledge of the Old Testament that allowed him to explain the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant because it was there all along. It was merely concealed.
And confirmation isn't teaching someone. It's merely reinforcing what they already knew and professed. Peter did not have superior understanding than Paul. This is easily discernable by merely reading what each wrote.

I am a natural born Jew who had similar training Paul did as a boy in the Torah and Scriptures + Talmud in Synagogue. I understand him perfectly. Definitely better than the Reformed.

So let's put this onto you then.
You didn't know what Jesus said until you read His words and saw the Disciple use the same terminology that "confirmed" the words of Jesus.

What did Jesus say to them?

1. 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

3. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

So Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit

How did the Disciples confirm what Jesus said?

Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

I am a natural born Jew who had similar training Paul did as a boy in the Torah and Scriptures + Talmud in Synagogue. I understand him perfectly. Definitely better than the Reformed.

So let's put this onto you then.
You didn't know what Jesus said until you read His words and saw the Disciple use the same terminology that "confirmed" the words of Jesus.

What did Jesus say to them?

1. 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

3. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

So Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit

How did the Disciples confirm what Jesus said?

Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand what you are asking of me here. Can you clarify? Do you think Paul sat at Peter's feet?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I don't understand what you are asking of me here. Can you clarify? Do you think Paul sat at Peter's feet?

Not at all. I think Peter confirmed everything Paul had learned from his revelation.

I think three confirmations were happening.
1. Paul comparing his revelation education to Peter's first hand education.
2. Peter to know what Paul knew to help Peter integrate Paul into the other Apostles.
3. Peter to know Paul was not the enemy like he once was.

I am sure Peter tested Paul's knowledge before integrating Paul to the Others as equals.

But believing it was Paul who wrote Hebrews, Paul did say in 2:3 "and was confirmed for us by those that heard."
I believe Paul included himself into the "us" portion of the verse.

 

[Cameron143]

Not at all. I think Peter confirmed everything Paul had learned from his revelation.

I think three confirmations were happening.
1. Paul comparing his revelation education to Peter's first hand education.
2. Peter to know what Paul knew to help Peter integrate Paul into the other Apostles.
3. Peter to know Paul was not the enemy like he once was.

I am sure Peter tested Paul's knowledge before integrating Paul to the Others as equals.

But believing it was Paul who wrote Hebrews, Paul did say in 2:3 "and was confirmed for us by those that heard."
I believe Paul included himself into the "us" portion of the verse.

Sure. But the Apostles weren't the only ones who heard. Lots of people heard Jesus teach.