Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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No, it does not follow logically. Why would God have to do for every single human being when he did for that man? Don' you know that in Romans 9 it teaches us that God sovereignly took from ONE lump of dead, non-elect humanity and made them into a second lump for noble purposes? The text does not say he made the entire first lump into a second lump! There is very clearly TWO lumps of clay.

P.S. God did not do for Adam what he did for Eve, did he?
Why wouldn't God do it?

This person describes an atheist, someone who hates the idea of God. That's the majority of every person who is not saved. But if God does it for one then there's no reason to think He isn't doing it for everyone.

But I know this person. He's been in my Dad's, mine home and church and we have literally hundreds of hours about this very discussion.

Face it, your doctrine is wrong.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Why wouldn't God do it?

This person describes an atheist, someone who hates the idea of God. That's the majority of every person who is not saved. But if God does it for one then there's no reason to think He isn't doing it for everyone.

But I know this person. He's been in my Dad's, mine home and church and we have literally hundreds of hours about this very discussion.

Face it, your doctrine is wrong.
Because he doesn't have to. How's that for a "wild and crazy" guess? Again...did he save both our first parents?

And so what the guy was a stone-cold atheist? God has saved plenty of those. It goes to show you the awesome power of God! Nothing is impossible for him that accords with his holy nature.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Adam got the worst end of the deal. Eve got hard child labor and birth, Adam got the rest of the punishment because Adam knew better.
I agree. Adam got the short end of the stick...for all eternity! Eve, though, was reconciled to God...for all eternity.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Because he doesn't have to. How's that for a "wild and crazy" guess? Again...did he save both our first parents?

And so what the guy was a stone-cold atheist? God has saved plenty of those. It goes to show you the awesome power of God! Nothing is impossible for him that accords with his holy nature.
But nowhere says God doesn't do it for all, it says for specific people like Pharaoh and Esau.
And Pharaoh was only to do Signs and Wonders to show Who God is and Esau was about choosing a Nation and if we throw in the Jews it was only so the Gentiles could be saved.

Regular people are under no such restriction, especially the Gentile who is being welcomed into the Fold.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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But nowhere says God doesn't do it for all, it says for specific people like Pharaoh and Esau.
And Pharaoh was only to do Signs and Wonders to show Who God is and Esau was about choosing a Nation and if we throw in the Jews it was only so the Gentiles could be saved.

Regular people are under no such restriction, especially the Gentile who is being welcomed into the Fold.
Do what for all: Make salvation possible? He didn't do that for Adam -- and in no uncertain terms!

And you forgot Ishamael! He was also excluded from inheriting the covenant promises God made to Abraham. In other words, he was not a child of promise and, therefore, according to Romans 9 not in a [saving] covenant relationship with God, as Issac was.

God never intended to save all humanity. This is crystal clear from Gen 3:15! By God's DECREE, he immediately after the Fall. made two lumps of clay out of one! There's the woman and her godly seed and the serpent's ungodly seed, which included Adam. Divine election election took place in he Garden and is the whole point to Romans 9!

If God intended from the very beginning to save all humanity, then he's beyond a lousy savior! He could only manage to save 8 measly people in the antediluvian age. Pathetic! :rolleyes:

And you apparently refuse to believe what Rom9:16-29 teaches. Why is that? (Rhetorical question.)
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Adam wasn't reconciled to God?
I don't see that at all in scripture. Did you miss my 15-point argument for unconditional election in the Garden in my 3044? And I also wrote a follow up of sorts that explains in detail what spiritual death entails in 3493, and how it's impossible for any man through human effort to make a bridge between himself and God to traverse that separation.
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
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I don't see that at all in scripture. Did you miss my 15-point argument for unconditional election in the Garden in my 3044? And I also wrote a follow up of sorts that explains in detail what spiritual death entails in 3493, and how it's impossible for any man through human effort to make a bridge between himself and God to traverse that separation.
Correct belief is a work.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Do what for all: Make salvation possible? He didn't do that for Adam -- and in no uncertain terms!

And you forgot Ishamael! He was also excluded from inheriting the covenant promises God made to Abraham. In other words, he was not a child of promise and, therefore, according to Romans 9 not in a [saving] covenant relationship with God, as Issac was.

God never intended to save all humanity. This is crystal clear from Gen 3:15! By God's DECREE, he immediately after the Fall. made two lumps of clay out of one! There's the woman and her godly seed and the serpent's ungodly seed, which included Adam. Divine election election took place in he Garden and is the whole point to Romans 9!

If God intended from the very beginning to save all humanity, then he's beyond a lousy savior! He could only manage to save 8 measly people in the antediluvian age. Pathetic! :rolleyes:

And you apparently refuse to believe what Rom9:16-29 teaches. Why is that? (Rhetorical question.)
Ishmael learned the truth from Abraham.
You clearly have no idea that Abraham married an Arab woman Keturah after Sarah died and had more sons.
1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

None of these sons followed this junk by Mohammed. They followed what Abraham taught them.

Rebekah is also Arab, Isaac's wife, is from what is known today as modern day Iraq.

You really have no idea about the Torah at all and where everyone came from and what they believed especially Abraham's children.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I don't see that at all in scripture. Did you miss my 15-point argument for unconditional election in the Garden in my 3044? And I also wrote a follow up of sorts that explains in detail what spiritual death entails in 3493, and how it's impossible for any man through human effort to make a bridge between himself and God to traverse that separation.
I agree that through human effort no one will be reconciled to God. But God clothed Adam in animal skin same as Eve. I believe the blood was applied to him as well as Eve.
 
Dec 29, 2023
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Correct belief is a work.

Yep, it's one of the good works we were before ordained to walk in

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Ishmael learned the truth from Abraham.
You clearly have no idea that Abraham married an Arab woman Keturah after Sarah died and had more sons.
1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

None of these sons followed this junk by Mohammed. They followed what Abraham taught them.

Rebekah is also Arab, Isaac's wife, is from what is known today as modern day Iraq.

You really have no idea about the Torah at all and where everyone came from and what they believed especially Abraham's children.
But I do know what scripture teaches, which brings us back to Ishmael. He was not a child of the promise.

But I would love to see chapter and verse that proves what you claim about Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah and "this junk by Mohammed". Or did you make this up from whole cloth?
 
Dec 29, 2023
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Where did you draw that theory from in scripture?

Faith is a Good Work
---------------------------

John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.




Faith is certainly not a work of the Law; for Paul said that the Law is contrary to faith (Gal 3:12). So what kind of "work" is it?

It's not a work of the law, it's a work of the Holy Spirit coming thru us.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,006
98
48
I agree that through human effort no one will be reconciled to God. But God clothed Adam in animal skin same as Eve. I believe the blood was applied to him as well as Eve.
As does much, if not most, of the Church also believe. As I explained in my argument, in anticipation of this kind of argument, God's provision of covering does not mean it was accepted by faith. (I doubt Cain ran around naked. So assuming he didn't, then what good did his covering do for him?) There is zero evidence in scripture that Adam ever had faith; whereas the contrary is true of Eve. Even worse for Adam is that scripture never speaks of him in positive terms. To the contrary! He's contrasted with Christ twice in the NT.

I have to go with the preponderance of evidence presented in my argument re both our first parents.
 
Dec 29, 2023
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There is zero evidence in scripture that Adam ever had faith

Without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) so Adam would had to have walked in faith before he sinned otherwise God would have rejected him for not walking in faith long before he ate of the tree in disobedience.

There's nothing in scripture that tells us Adam was not pleasing to God before he ate of the tree.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,006
98
48
Faith is a Good Work
---------------------------

John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It's not a work of the law, it's a work of the Holy Spirit coming thru us.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


John 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Absolutely Faith is a work of God! (Notice Jesus' play on words in Jn 6:28-29.) Not a work of man. How is it a work of God? It's a gift given to the Father's elect. Biblical faith is not something that dead men conjure up by their sheer, awesome, mighty [will] power. :rolleyes:
And this precious gift of faith is a two-sided coin: On one side is Faith; on the other is Faithfulness (obedience to the Truth) which invariably will issue forth from Faith. This is one of the really big points to James' epistle.