My ax-grinding partial preterist thread

[shroom2]

Another issue I have with futurists is the historical burden of proof they demand of our interpretation of Revelation.

Because we take the near/soon language literally as applying to its original hearers (Meaning everything up until the 1000 year reference is already fulfilled.) - often a futurist will demand that we find proof for EVERY event in Revelation that happened in history.

I would like to see proof of even ONE event spoken about in Revelation as already happened. And regarding the "near/soon" language.... Ezekiel 7 is talking about the trib, and says

6) An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.
7) The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.
8) Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.

That was spoken 100s of years before Christ, and now we're ~2000 years past, and it -still- hasn't happened.

 

[zone]

The problem with this whole things is it says pre-milenialist deny the world to come.

The 1000 year reign is not a world to come. It is another aspect of human history on earth.

show me ANYWHERE Jesus or the apostles taught a probationary (or whatever it is) 1,000 years on an earth that's going to be folded up anyways.

and tell me WHY. for what purpose, when everyone who doesn't worship the beast/take the mark is killed. those who do go into the lake of fire.

who,who, who survives that, the Second Advent, in flesh bodies?

i just showed you where Jesus Christ HIMSELF said this world/the world to come.

2 ages/worlds. not two worlds with a 1,000 year GAP between them!

the GAPS are all the leaven of the Pharisees.

the Daniel 9 70th week gap - leaven.

Joel was fulfilled at pentecost, not a 2000 year gap with a great revival and outpouring - this is a clear and easy (i should think) SET-UP for what scriptures plainly says is a GREAT falling away, no revival, a refusal to hold to sound doctrine; a multitude of false prophets (CHURCH WANTED PROPHETS, CHURCH GOT THEM.....THOUSANDS OF THEM).

Joel was FULFILLED.

but watching that Lou Engle and all those charismatic videos last night with stadiums full of people falling over backwards, passing out.....it is CRYSTAL CLEAR what has happened.

throw away your Scofield Reference Bible. its toxic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah that's the part I'm really wrestling with too about her interpretation.

I mean we look out at reality and it's hard to imagine Satan is bound with NO influence. Yet it's hard to read that text and think the only influence being limited is the influence to lead the nations to war against Jesus.

BUT..

Since it only mentions Satan being bound and unable to influence stuff, and not also his demons.......Here's the interpretation I'm possibly comfortable with.

Satan is currently bound. He can't influence anything. His demon hoards are still on the loose. Still trying to advance his kingdom. They're doing some of his bidding but not all. The gospel is victoriously on the advance as Satan sits chained in the abyss and as his demon minion hords scamper about without their leader.

We can explain the presence of gross evil in the world on the sinful flesh in man and on the demonic influence of the scampering hoard of demons.

Just a possible interpretation.

yeah it is possible. Of this I will not disagree

but we have to look at a few things.

1. Satan entered Judas, he was called the son of perdition because of it.

the man of sin who is spoken of in revelation and goes to battle and commits the "abomination" is also called the son of perdition. Satan entered him also. How could satan enter a man who is supposed to govern prety much the whole world when he is bound?

 

[1still_waters]

I would like to see proof of even ONE event spoken about in Revelation as already happened. And regarding the "near/soon" language.... Ezekiel 7 is talking about the trib, and says

6) An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.
7) The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.
8) Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.

That was spoken 100s of years before Christ, and now we're ~2000 years past, and it -still- hasn't happened.

That's not speaking of a yet to come tribulation. That's a futurist Dispensational/Scofield/Darby urban legend and myth.

 

[zone]

ALL THE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE YOU NEED TO SEE WHAT IS MEANT SATAN BOUND (FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS BY HIDING/TAKING AWAY THE GOSPEL THROUGH DECEPTION: if we need to see how people are being deceived about THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL...you to Youtube and look at the GNOSTICS. IT'S DREADFUL.

PLEASE TELL ME: are people falling away from the faith? are they holding to sound doctrine? are they looking to have ears scratched? do they understand the bible?
do they read it?

can they answer a simple test of what the GOSPEL IS?

Has Satan been bound?

Many people have their own ideas of what Rev. 20: 1-3 entails, as to the binding of Satan. What does it say elsewhere in the bible?

1 John 3: 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Satan's main works is falsehood and death, but Jesus came to testify to the truth (John 18:37; John 8:31-37). Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 tim. 1:10). Jesus came, not only to destroy Satan's works, but to destroy Satan himself.

Hebrews 2: 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--

Destroy does not necessarily mean annihilate. Throughout Jesus' ministry, he was limiting Satan's powers, by casting out demons.

Matthew 12: 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

Jesus defeated and bound Satan when he was resurrected from the cross.

Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. 19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

At the time of John's revelation, Jesus already held the keys to death and Hades. These are the dominion of Satan. Satan would have to be bound in this case.

Prior to Christ's coming, the nations, with the exception of Israel, languished in darkness, being deceive by Satan's lies (Romans 1: 18-32).

The gospel truth is what dispels Satan's lies and brings light unto the world.

2 Timothy 1: 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Through the great commission, (Mat. 28: 18-20), all the nations have been delivered from the captivity of the devil.

It is the truth of the gospel message of Jesus Christ that forges the chains that bind Satan, so that he can no longer deceive the nations.

now with what SuperDave has here, set it next to a single paragraph, in a single chapter, in a book of visions.

PLEASE!

 

[zone]

That's not speaking of a yet to come tribulation. That's a futurist Dispensational/Scofield/Darby urban legend and myth.

we do have satan's little season - the grand deception (lying signs and wonders, the son of perdition - an edomite talmudist claiming descent from David via Solomon - Jesus came through NATHAN!).all the world obey the Noahide Laws or be beheaded. people laugh at this....

its already here.

we've got the great battle with the church attacked,

The Second Advent, Judgment, eternity.
that's it.

 

[zone]

we do have satan's little season - the grand deception (lying signs and wonders, the son of perdition - an edomite talmudist claiming descent from David via Solomon - Jesus came through NATHAN!). all the world obey the Noahide Laws or be beheaded. people laugh at this....

its already here.

we've got the great battle with the church attacked,

The Second Advent, Judgment, eternity.
that's it.

if you've been keeping track of the NAR, Rick Joyner and all these prophets and apostles the church begged for (because they could not accept the plain meaning of the Historical Record of the Acts of the Apostles - GAP), let's see what comes on the HEELS of the The Third Wave (Latter Rain corruption of Joel 2):


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+3]Rabbi Robert Cohen & Rick Joyner[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]Edited transcript of Audio tape from[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]"The Opening Night" of Messiah’99[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]July 4-10,1999[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Conference Sponsored By:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Messianic Jewish Alliance of America[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Young Messianic Jewish Alliance[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Rabbi Robert Cohen[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]The Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Rick Joyner & The Knights of Malta[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Noahide Laws: Path of the Righteous Gentiles[/FONT]

Rick Joyner Addresses Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

~

if anyone at all in the Lord's Church can see what i am saying..... if you have read this, if you get it, please just hit reply and say yes.

i'm about to give up, people WILL NOT LISTEN. the secret societies have carried forward for millennia this ONE LIE: God gave Oral Laws to Moses at Sinai - THE NOAHIDE LAWS.

do......you........get it YET??? hello? anybody?

5 years ago you couldn't FIND ANYTHING on this. nothing.

now look.

 

[WeStand]

we do have satan's little season - the grand deception (lying signs and wonders, the son of perdition - an edomite talmudist claiming descent from David via Solomon - Jesus came through NATHAN!).all the world obey the Noahide Laws or be beheaded. people laugh at this....

its already here.

we've got the great battle with the church attacked,

The Second Advent, Judgment, eternity.
that's it.

IF you truly Love God Zone, i'd spend more time praying and studying, He's trying to comfort His people, not scare them.

Forever in Christ

 

[zone]

IF you truly Love God Zone, i'd spend more time praying and studying, He's trying to comfort His people, not scare them.

Forever in Christ

is that ARNOLD MURRAYS ADVICE?

step back Glowing.

 

[shroom2]

That's not speaking of a yet to come tribulation. That's a futurist Dispensational/Scofield/Darby urban legend and myth.

What trib is it speaking of, then?

You claim to have questions, but you refute possible explanations as "legend and myth". So do you have questions?

 

[WeStand]

is that ARNOLD MURRAYS ADVICE?

step back Glowing.

Steo off, Zone

 

[zone]

What trib is it speaking of, then?

You claim to have questions, but you refute possible explanations as "legend and myth". So do you have questions?

shroom -

there's just this critical thing we HAVE TO GRASP.

early this century, a new set of doctrines was injected into the Church - Dispensationalism.

it said that there were GAPS in the flow of Redemptive History.

it separated Israel the nation from the church. - this is key because it kept the Pharisees going. THEIR RELIGION is Babylonian Talmudism...Oral Traditions and Kabbalah...not Moses!

it separated Daniels 70th week from the 69th.

it took that last week (7 years), and placed it at the end of time, and said that God would rapture the gentile church away, and turn His attention back to faithful Israel, who had been supposedly been kindly blinded for 2000 years since they rejected Jesus (Romans 11 corruption - GAP) and the real Kingdom is POSTPONED until a future 1,000 years.

during the FABRICATED 7 year "tribulation", faithful Israel would rebuild a temple (a corruption of ezekiel's vision of New Jerusalem), and an EVIL POPE (or politician) would enter and stop the faithful Rabbis who love Moses (THEY ACTUALLY HOLD TO BABYLONIAN TALMUDISM) from performing THE DAILY SACRIFICE, which for some reason God is now PLEASED with.

DANIEL 9 WAS COMPLETELY FULFILLED BY JESUS AT THE FIRST ADVENT.

this is the Leaven of the Pharisees.

there is NO 7 year tribulation written in scripture. the 70th week is FULFILLED.

however.....there is a period of deception and destruction called satan's little season (Rev 20, 2 Thess2). we do not know how long this lasts, though revelation does suggest a period of 5 months.
i am still studying this.

in reality, since evangelicals have been DUPED into Christian Zionism, they have been setting up the Great Harlot in Jerusalem, and she WILL run the nations for a short space.

the NOAHIDE LAWS will be enforced (The Freemasons have been set for this PURPOSE ALONE - they will be the GENTILE COUNCILS...) The Sanhedrin is in place.


NO GAPS!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

show me ANYWHERE Jesus or the apostles taught a probationary (or whatever it is) 1,000 years on an earth that's going to be folded up anyways.

and tell me WHY. for what purpose, when everyone who doesn't worship the beast/take the mark is killed. those who do go into the lake of fire.

who,who, who survives that, the Second Advent, in flesh bodies?

i just showed you where Jesus Christ HIMSELF said this world/the world to come.

2 ages/worlds. not two worlds with a 1,000 year GAP between them!

the GAPS are all the leaven of the Pharisees.

the Daniel 9 70th week gap - leaven.

Joel was fulfilled at pentecost, not a 2000 year gap with a great revival and outpouring - this is a clear and easy (i should think) SET-UP for what scriptures plainly says is a GREAT falling away, no revival, a refusal to hold to sound doctrine; a multitude of false prophets (CHURCH WANTED PROPHETS, CHURCH GOT THEM.....THOUSANDS OF THEM).

Joel was FULFILLED.

but watching that Lou Engle and all those charismatic videos last night with stadiums full of people falling over backwards, passing out.....it is CRYSTAL CLEAR what has happened.

throw away your Scofield Reference Bible. its toxic.

1. What would it matter if Jesus spoke of it or not? do they have to?
2. The OT taught of it.
A. Restoration of Israel after she repents.(also confirmed in romans 11)
B. Messaih who would make an earthly kingdom (vs a heavenly one)


gap of daniel

even your belief has a gap because there had to be a gap between the end of the 69th week (messiah cut off) till Titus destroyed the temple (38 years later). So your fighting a battle which destroys even your own theory.

 

[superdave5221]

Jesus not only bound Satan and limited his powers, but he gave that power to his disciples as well (Mat. 10:1). In Luke 10: 1-20, Jesus commissioned 70 evangelists with similar power.

Luke 10: 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

What Jesus is talking about in verse 18 is the same event described symbolically in Rev. 12: 7-9. This is not Satan's fall from his initial sin, but his fall at the hands of the Messiah at his first coming.

At the end of the church age, Satan will be loosed and will launch a concentrated spiritual attack on the church, (perhaps now?). This spiritual attack is worldwide and is Armageddon, Gog and Magog combined.

Armageddon is a spiritual war against the church, not Israel, and is worldwide in scope!

In the midst of this war, Christ will return to judge the world. Praise God!

 

[1still_waters]

What trib is it speaking of, then?

You claim to have questions, but you refute possible explanations as "legend and myth". So do you have questions?

God's exiling them to Babylon in the second exile. I'm not having this debate. This is simple OT history stuff. I get why people think Rev is yet to be fulfilled. But for people to think Ez 7 us in the future just points to umm...failure to know your OT.

I don't mean to be snarky..and hopefully it didn't come off that way..but reallyyy..read the entire OT .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus not only bound Satan and limited his powers, but he gave that power to his disciples as well (Mat. 10:1). In Luke 10: 1-20, Jesus commissioned 70 evangelists with similar power.

Luke 10: 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

What Jesus is talking about in verse 18 is the same event described symbolically in Rev. 12: 7-9. This is not Satan's fall from his initial sin, but his fall at the hands of the Messiah at his first coming.

At the end of the church age, Satan will be loosed and will launch a concentrated spiritual attack on the church, (perhaps now?). This spiritual attack is worldwide and is Armageddon, Gog and Magog combined.

Armageddon is a spiritual war against the church, not Israel, and is worldwide in scope!

In the midst of this war, Christ will return to judge the world. Praise God!

did not know the church was in Jerusalem, in the land of canaan. Where two major battles will take place. Armageddon being one of them. Called so because of th ename of the mountain where it takes place.

tell me, how can the militaries of the word attack the church? the church is not a city or even a miltary which is in one place on earth. This makes even less sense than alot of the other stuff people are posting.

 

[zone]

Jesus not only bound Satan and limited his powers, but he gave that power to his disciples as well (Mat. 10:1). In Luke 10: 1-20, Jesus commissioned 70 evangelists with similar power.

Luke 10: 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

What Jesus is talking about in verse 18 is the same event described symbolically in Rev. 12: 7-9. This is not Satan's fall from his initial sin, but his fall at the hands of the Messiah at his first coming.

At the end of the church age, Satan will be loosed and will launch a concentrated spiritual attack on the church, (perhaps now?). This spiritual attack is worldwide and is Armageddon, Gog and Magog combined.

Armageddon is a spiritual war against the church, not Israel, and is worldwide in scope!

In the midst of this war, Christ will return to judge the world. Praise God!

i agree somewhat Dave. but the killing will be real....that's nothing compared to the spiritual deaths happening every day around the world as people fall under this great outpouring of mysticism.

who will be doing it is what we have not known until the last decade:

here's who Gog and Magog (the King of the North) is:

The Orthodox Nationalist: Khazaria : Voice of Reason Broadcast Network

we can also know them in the West since they are BRITISH ISRAELISM/ZIONISM.

these are not and never were Hebrews.

 

[superdave5221]

i agree somewhat Dave. but the killing will be real....that's nothing compared to the spiritual deaths happening every day around the world as people fall under this great outpouring of mysticism.

who will be doing it is what we have not known until the last decade:

here's who Gog and Magog (the King of the North) is:

The Orthodox Nationalist: Khazaria : Voice of Reason Broadcast Network

we can also know them in the West since they are BRITISH ISRAELISM/ZIONISM.

these are not and never were Hebrews.

Ok. I have only recently begun to study this issue, so I am still learning. My knowledge, admittedly, is still limited, so I will sit back and learn from others, and continue to study the issue on my own.

 

[zone]

Ok. I have only recently begun to study this issue, so I am still learning. My knowledge, admittedly, is still limited, so I will sit back and learn from others, and continue to study the issue on my own.

NO DAVE!
help!
i dont know anymore than you do.
just the areas i've been called to look into!
come on brother.....stay with us please.

 

[zone]

did not know the church was in Jerusalem, in the land of canaan. Where two major battles will take place. Armageddon being one of them. Called so because of th ename of the mountain where it takes place.

tell me, how can the militaries of the word attack the church? the church is not a city or even a miltary which is in one place on earth. This makes even less sense than alot of the other stuff people are posting.

what 2 major battles?

are they 1,000 years apart EG?

who is The Bible concerned with EG? Christians?

Rabbis who are admittedly PHARISEES?

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

or pagans who converted to Babylonian Talmudism in 700AD? >> The Eastern Church and Muslims ALL KNOW THIS! they have all along (at the highest levels they are in on it!)

Hoffman's Judaism Slideshow PREVIEW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyeW4G2WGXs