All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There are people in Israel dying everyday who are not saved.

I hear what you are saying, but I also hear what the Bible is saying, which is that we humans are not the depictors of who is saved and who is not. Sure, we can test other believes and formulate conclusions, sometimes more easily than others, but ultimately we do not know the Saving Plan of God. In fact, I believe that based upon Scripture, Eternal Life can be granted even after our physical death. That may be incorrect, but again, I base that thought on Scripture.

The mark of physical circumcision was like a Promissory Note that guaranteed Spiritual Circumcision at a later date (to the Blessed Jews). Anyway, that gets a little deep, but I do want to thank you for sharing! All kind people are encouraged to continue and come back for more!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Both are true. But it is confusing until you define what the remnant is and what is engendered by all Israel.
This is no short explanation because it deals with eschatology, covenants, and redemption.

If both statements by Paul in the same Epistle are true, this would have to be the best pre-explanation. I'd sure like to unwrap this Mystery. After about 7 years of intensive word-by-word and phrase-by-phrase study of the entire Bible, this is one of the Mysteries of God that I haven't been able to figure out.

Cameron, if you ever write a paper that explains what you are saying, please, PLEASE send me a copy!!

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I hear what you are saying, but I also hear what the Bible is saying, which is that we humans are not the depictors of who is saved and who is not. Sure, we can test other believes and formulate conclusions, sometimes more easily than others, but ultimately we do not know the Saving Plan of God. In fact, I believe that based upon Scripture, Eternal Life can be granted even after our physical death. That may be incorrect, but again, I base that thought on Scripture.

The mark of physical circumcision was like a Promissory Note that guaranteed Spiritual Circumcision at a later date (to the Blessed Jews). Anyway, that gets a little deep, but I do want to thank you for sharing! All kind people are encouraged to continue and come back for more!

Sure,we do know the saving plan of God because Jesus told us the saving plan.

Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


That is his plan.

 

[Cameron143]

If both statements by Paul in the same Epistle are true, this would have to be the best pre-explanation. I'd sure like to unwrap this Mystery. After about 7 years of intensive word-by-word and phrase-by-phrase study of the entire Bible, this is one of the Mysteries of God that I haven't been able to figure out.

Cameron, if you ever write a paper that explains what you are saying, please, PLEASE send me a copy!!

Don't think I'll be writing that paper anytime soon, but I will share a few thoughts. If you recall my earlier supposition that Romans 5-8 is dealing with assurance for believers, I'll expand a little. Just as Paul anticipated questions and objections to assurance in 6 and 7, having introduced election in 8, he anticipates questions and objections concerning this. So chapters 9-11 deal with this: how does all this apply to Jews.
All of this is in the greater context of the a new covenant now being established in Christ and the old covenant passing away. So one's view of eschatology will influence one's understanding and interpretation of these chapters. To complicate things even further, how one understands the Abrahamic covenant and its fulfillment can throw more wrenches into the mix.
Personally, I don't find it terribly complicated if things are placed in context and scripture is considered in a more macro way and keep in mind that NT epistles are concerned to transition from an old covenant to a new one. That's why I outlined the chapters loosely.

 

[p_rehbein]

Uhhhh....because I'm not perfect? Good grief.

Just asking. Verse 23 answers the question you posed in the OP.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Sure,we do know the saving plan of God because Jesus told us the saving plan.

Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


That is his plan.

Oh, ok.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Don't think I'll be writing that paper anytime soon, but I will share a few thoughts. If you recall my earlier supposition that Romans 5-8 is dealing with assurance for believers, I'll expand a little. Just as Paul anticipated questions and objections to assurance in 6 and 7, having introduced election in 8, he anticipates questions and objections concerning this. So chapters 9-11 deal with this: how does all this apply to Jews.
All of this is in the greater context of the a new covenant now being established in Christ and the old covenant passing away. So one's view of eschatology will influence one's understanding and interpretation of these chapters. To complicate things even further, how one understands the Abrahamic covenant and its fulfillment can throw more wrenches into the mix.
Personally, I don't find it terribly complicated if things are placed in context and scripture is considered in a more macro way and keep in mind that NT epistles are concerned to transition from an old covenant to a new one. That's why I outlined the chapters loosely.

My goodness, do I ever relate to and understand all that you're saying. The fact that you say things like, "How one understands the Abrahamic Covenant and its fulfillment can throw more wrenches into the mix," shows and proves legitimate study, if not Holy Revealing from the Lord Himself, to yourself.

I recommend that everyone write a summary of each Chapter of the Bible. I realize that it is a lot of work, but in doing so, one will walk away saying essentially what you have written above.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

This concept has bothered me for quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas of how we justify the two below, and apparently opposing concepts?

Romans 9:27 NLT – “And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
Romans 11:25-26 NLT – “I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.”

I'm studying this as I write, so any ideas would be helpful. Thanks!

And those of you who want to fight and nit-pick . . . please don't participate. You suck the joy right out of what we're trying to accomplish, here.

If you look at the history of scripture, only a remnant has ever been saved. In the days of Noah only 8 were on the ark and saved and scripture says the Second Coming with be like the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39. I think many more will be saved at the Second Coming, but it will not be the majority. Mat 7:13-14 Mat 7:21-23

This is where we are today:

2 Tim 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

God does have a people though, although He again tells us sadly are only a remnant, which means a small remainder of the original.

Rev 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Most people have forsaken God's commandments and rely on their own rules, which means they are relying on their own righteousness and not God's righteousness Psa 119:172 Most churches and people teach either we do not need to keep God's commandments that He personally wrote and spoke, or teach we can edit them despite Jesus stating not a dot or tittle can pass from His law. Jesus came to save us from our sin, not in sin Mat 1:21 and sin is breaking God's law, 1 John 3:4 the Ten Commandments Rom 7:7 Mat 5:17-30 which sadly most people claim they are not valid despite Jesus teaching the complete opposite. Following Jesus the way He asks will never be popular- it is even predicted in scripture Rev 12:17.

Take the narrow path and follow the teachings of Jesus- trust in His Word- He will lead us on the narrow path back to Him. Rev 22:14

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

If you look at the history of scripture, only a remnant has ever been saved. In the days of Noah only 8 were on the ark and saved and scripture says the Second Coming with be like the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39

Hello! I don't recall seeing you here, but I'm glad you stopped in and participated. Please do so in the future as I create further posts regarding my studies.

I like all that you wrote. Where I still struggle is the idea that "All Israel will be Saved," yet as you have suggested, "All" might only include 8, and that doesn't seem right in my human spirit, which of course could always be wrong.

I struggle with believing that only a small Remnant will be Saved, for I say this in my own written, Biblical works. But, I also write about how an Entire Nation will be saved, but only after the proper number of Gentiles have been grafted in.

I am hopeful that I will get to the bottom of this issue within the next month of studies. I only have 22 more days to go before this 1-year study comes to a close . . . it has been quite a journey!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Both are true. But it is confusing until you define what the remnant is and what is engendered by all Israel.
This is no short explanation because it deals with eschatology, covenants, and redemption.

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:18, 26-29‬ ‭

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Hello! I don't recall seeing you here, but I'm glad you stopped in and participated. Please do so in the future as I create further posts regarding my studies.

I like all that you wrote. Where I still struggle is the idea that "All Israel will be Saved," yet as you have suggested, "All" might only include 8, and that doesn't seem right in my human spirit, which of course could always be wrong.

I struggle with believing that only a small Remnant will be Saved, for I say this in my own written, Biblical works. But, I also write about how an Entire Nation will be saved, but only after the proper number of Gentiles have been grafted in.

I am hopeful that I will get to the bottom of this issue within the next month of studies. I only have 22 more days to go before this 1-year study comes to a close . . . it has been quite a journey!

Israel is just a name God gave to identify God's people so when we read scripture we know who God's people are. Literal Israel fell away and its no longer "literal" Israel, but Spiritual Israel- those who are grafted in through faith.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.r
Galatians 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God never made a Covenant with the Gentiles- it was always through Israel. We become spiritual Israel and are grafted in through faith and become part of the promise.

It's not a nationality that will be saved, it is anyone who hears His voice and responds and lives by His every Word Mat 4:4. Jesus in His own words said the majority won't be saved. He said "Many" He will say depart from Me on that great day Mat 7:21-23. Many in the bible means the majority. Most people want the blessing Jesus gives, but they don't want His teachings or to follow His example 1 John 2:6. They teach all you have to do is believe, and while that is part of it, belief and obedience in scripture go hand-in-hand. Heb 4:6, John 3:16-20. How does one believe but not enough to follow His teachings. Anyone can say Lord Lord, but not everyone wants a conversion which means a change in direction, following Christ and living by His every Word.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Israel is just a name God gave to identify God's people so when we read scripture we know who God's people are. Literal Israel fell away and its no longer "literal" Israel, but Spiritual Israel- those who are grafted in through faith.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.r
Galatians 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God never made a Covenant with the Gentiles- it was always through Israel. We become spiritual Israel and are grafted in through faith and become part of the promise.

It's not a nationality that will be saved, it is anyone who hears His voice and responds and lives by His every Word Mat 4:4. Jesus in His own words said the majority won't be saved. He said "Many" He will say depart from Me on that great day Mat 7:21-23. Many in the bible means the majority. Most people want the blessing Jesus gives, but they don't want His teachings or to follow His example 1 John 2:6. They teach all you have to do is believe, and while that is part of it, belief and obedience in scripture go hand-in-hand. Heb 4:6, John 3:16-20. How does one believe but not enough to follow His teachings. Anyone can say Lord Lord, but not everyone wants a conversion which means a change in direction, following Christ and living by His every Word.

Yes! All of this makes perfect sense. I just started writing on Romans 8-10 yesterday, and am, of course, dealing with Rom 9:6 as you have quoted above.

By the way, I wanted to say that indirectly, God did make a Covenant with the Gentiles, but through the Promise that God gave to Abraham through Hagar and Ishmael, for they represent the Promises made regarding the Gentiles. It was through Sarah and Isaac that the Covenant of the Law would be established, those who represent captivity.

Again, thank you so much. I hope to see more of you in the future.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yes! All of this makes perfect sense. I just started writing on Romans 8-10 yesterday, and am, of course, dealing with Rom 9:6 as you have quoted above.

By the way, I wanted to say that indirectly, God did make a Covenant with the Gentiles, but through the Promise that God gave to Abraham through Hagar and Ishmael, for they represent the Promises made regarding the Gentiles. It was through Sarah and Isaac that the Covenant of the Law would be established, those who represent captivity.

Again, thank you so much. I hope to see more of you in the future.

His New Covenant is still with Israel, but through our faith, we can become spiritual Israel and be part of the promise. His New Promise is a beautiful promise.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Keep studying and reading and God's promise is He will teach us all things John 14:26- we just need to allow His Word to guide us. Psa 119:105

God bless friend!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

His New Covenant is still with Israel, but through our faith, we can become spiritual Israel and be part of the promise. His New Promise is a beautiful promise.

Right! This is what Romans 2:27-28 is about . . . True Jews are actually True Christians according to the Covenant of Circumcision.

Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

True Jews, and True Christians will undergo a Spiritual change, an actual Romans 12:2 Transformation that very, extremely few Christians ever acknowledge nor talk about. Pretty crazy, isn't it? And it is this change of heart produced by God's Spirit that should help the majority of Christians to see that Paul couldn't have been discussing his current Spiritual condition in Romans 7. If he was, then he himself did not receive the Spiritual Circumcision he wrote about five chapters earlier.

Thank you for your help. I'll be back for more.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Right! This is what Romans 2:27-28 is about . . . True Jews are actually True Christians according to the Covenant of Circumcision.

Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

True Jews, and True Christians will undergo a Spiritual change, an actual Romans 12:2 Transformation that very, extremely few Christians ever acknowledge nor talk about. Pretty crazy, isn't it? And it is this change of heart produced by God's Spirit that should help the majority of Christians to see that Paul couldn't have been discussing his current Spiritual condition in Romans 7. If he was, then he himself did not receive the Spiritual Circumcision he wrote about five chapters earlier.

Thank you for your help. I'll be back for more.

You got it! Many literal Jews don't even believe in Jesus. Israel was His chosen people, but sadly they fell away. Anyone even in the OT could be grafted in through faith- like Ruth- your people are my people and you God, is my God.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You got it! Many literal Jews don't even believe in Jesus. Israel was His chosen people, but sadly they fell away. Anyone even in the OT could be grafted in through faith- like Ruth- your people are my people and you God, is my God.

I find it to be very interesting that everything you convey makes perfect sense, as if we have been led down the same study path . . . perhaps by the same God? Wouldn't that be a novel idea for a place like this? haha

So, I do have another issue that has always bothered me. Check out the staggering difference between the Jews being able to comprehend and understand in Chapter 10, yet in Chapter 11, Paul teaches that all of Israel was in a Spiritual "deep sleep," quoting Isaiah. Here are the Scripts:

Romans 10:16-19 NLT - 16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, "LORD, who has believed our message?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: "The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world." 19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - 7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Now, what I see all throughout Scripture is Israel's inability to understand and obey, except in specific situations, such as with Moses lifting the Veil so the Light of God would shine upon the Jews. And of course, when the Light of God shines upon a person, Understanding and obedience to that understanding is Enabled and Empowered by the Spirit. However, what I [do not] see is Israel showing any indication that they understand. Even Solomon became involved with child sacrifice, burning children alive. Solomon! The wisest man to have ever lived, involved himself with burning children alive. Solomon may have been wise, but I am not as confident that I will see him in Heaven as I will the Apostle Paul.

You're right. The Remnant has always been a narrow, thin Vine that traversed throughout the region. This low-lying organism was maintained by the Power of God. Incredibly, this narrow Vine escaped death as it faced Goliath, for example. This narrow Vine escaped the horror of Israel and Judah, particularly during the days when they were forewarned that one parent would murder their own child, gut it, clean it, cook it, eat it, hide the remainder of flesh for later consumption, and then when the family asked, "Hey. Where's little Jimmy?"

This Vine even survived Israelite days when rooms in the Temple of God were used for male prostitution. It is inconceivable what the Vine of Christ. And because of the Davidic Covenant, it all makes the Story of God the single most shocking, staggering, Miraculous Story ever conceived.

Whew. Had to ramble, I guess.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Israel is just a name God gave to identify God's people so when we read scripture we know who God's people are. Literal Israel fell away and its no longer "literal" Israel, but Spiritual Israel- those who are grafted in through faith.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.r
Galatians 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God never made a Covenant with the Gentiles- it was always through Israel. We become spiritual Israel and are grafted in through faith and become part of the promise.

It's not a nationality that will be saved, it is anyone who hears His voice and responds and lives by His every Word Mat 4:4. Jesus in His own words said the majority won't be saved. He said "Many" He will say depart from Me on that great day Mat 7:21-23. Many in the bible means the majority. Most people want the blessing Jesus gives, but they don't want His teachings or to follow His example 1 John 2:6. They teach all you have to do is believe, and while that is part of it, belief and obedience in scripture go hand-in-hand. Heb 4:6, John 3:16-20. How does one believe but not enough to follow His teachings. Anyone can say Lord Lord, but not everyone wants a conversion which means a change in direction, following Christ and living by His every Word.[/QUOTE

I find it to be very interesting that everything you convey makes perfect sense, as if we have been led down the same study path . . . perhaps by the same God? Wouldn't that be a novel idea for a place like this? haha

So, I do have another issue that has always bothered me. Check out the staggering difference between the Jews being able to comprehend and understand in Chapter 10, yet in Chapter 11, Paul teaches that all of Israel was in a Spiritual "deep sleep," quoting Isaiah. Here are the Scripts:

Romans 10:16-19 NLT - 16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, "LORD, who has believed our message?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: "The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world." 19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - 7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Now, what I see all throughout Scripture is Israel's inability to understand and obey, except in specific situations, such as with Moses lifting the Veil so the Light of God would shine upon the Jews. And of course, when the Light of God shines upon a person, Understanding and obedience to that understanding is Enabled and Empowered by the Spirit. However, what I [do not] see is Israel showing any indication that they understand. Even Solomon became involved with child sacrifice, burning children alive. Solomon! The wisest man to have ever lived, involved himself with burning children alive. Solomon may have been wise, but I am not as confident that I will see him in Heaven as I will the Apostle Paul.

You're right. The Remnant has always been a narrow, thin Vine that traversed throughout the region. This low-lying organism was maintained by the Power of God. Incredibly, this narrow Vine escaped death as it faced Goliath, for example. This narrow Vine escaped the horror of Israel and Judah, particularly during the days when they were forewarned that one parent would murder their own child, gut it, clean it, cook it, eat it, hide the remainder of flesh for later consumption, and then when the family asked, "Hey. Where's little Jimmy?"

This Vine even survived Israelite days when rooms in the Temple of God were used for male prostitution. It is inconceivable what the Vine of Christ. And because of the Davidic Covenant, it all makes the Story of God the single most shocking, staggering, Miraculous Story ever conceived.

Whew. Had to ramble, I guess.

“For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭29:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You got it! Many literal Jews don't even believe in Jesus. Israel was His chosen people, but sadly they fell away. Anyone even in the OT could be grafted in through faith- like Ruth- your people are my people and you God, is my God.

Exactly

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before Jesus died because they rejected and had him killed

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15:24‬ ‭

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

near the end of his life on earth

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

after he rose

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Aaron56]

I think it means all who WILL become Israel will be saved.
Gentile and Jew alike.

I agree with this.

A lot of us Christians forget that we are in effect Jewish through being grafted in to THE Jewish Messiah.

This does not square with this:

”Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”

He is no longer Jewish. He died in the flesh and arose with an incorruptible body, not of the earth but of the Spirit. He is no longer of the line of Eber but only of the direct line of God. This is what His resurrection proved on earth: that He was from above.

In short: we do not have a Jewish Savior. God, the Son, is our Savior.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I find it to be very interesting that everything you convey makes perfect sense, as if we have been led down the same study path . . . perhaps by the same God? Wouldn't that be a novel idea for a place like this? haha

So, I do have another issue that has always bothered me. Check out the staggering difference between the Jews being able to comprehend and understand in Chapter 10, yet in Chapter 11, Paul teaches that all of Israel was in a Spiritual "deep sleep," quoting Isaiah. Here are the Scripts:

Romans 10:16-19 NLT - 16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, "LORD, who has believed our message?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: "The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world." 19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - 7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Now, what I see all throughout Scripture is Israel's inability to understand and obey, except in specific situations, such as with Moses lifting the Veil so the Light of God would shine upon the Jews. And of course, when the Light of God shines upon a person, Understanding and obedience to that understanding is Enabled and Empowered by the Spirit. However, what I [do not] see is Israel showing any indication that they understand. Even Solomon became involved with child sacrifice, burning children alive. Solomon! The wisest man to have ever lived, involved himself with burning children alive. Solomon may have been wise, but I am not as confident that I will see him in Heaven as I will the Apostle Paul.

You're right. The Remnant has always been a narrow, thin Vine that traversed throughout the region. This low-lying organism was maintained by the Power of God. Incredibly, this narrow Vine escaped death as it faced Goliath, for example. This narrow Vine escaped the horror of Israel and Judah, particularly during the days when they were forewarned that one parent would murder their own child, gut it, clean it, cook it, eat it, hide the remainder of flesh for later consumption, and then when the family asked, "Hey. Where's little Jimmy?"

This Vine even survived Israelite days when rooms in the Temple of God were used for male prostitution. It is inconceivable what the Vine of Christ. And because of the Davidic Covenant, it all makes the Story of God the single most shocking, staggering, Miraculous Story ever conceived.

Whew. Had to ramble, I guess.

Yes! There is only one Truth in scripture and how we find that is allowing God's Word to speak for itself. God's Word will interpret itself if we allow. Pro 3:5-6 Also there are no contradictions, especially with Paul's writings. He is hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16 but was a servant to Christ and never taught something different than what Jesus taught or lived .

Sin has been the biggest issue from the beginning and continues to this day. What is sad is most people won't allow the biblical definition of what sin is to guide their life, they depend on their own righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172 and it is leading people down the wrong direction, same as in scripture. It's the same story that plays out over and over. God is longsuffering and in scripture it shows He will rise up a prophet to get people back to His Word that sadly most people scoffed. Nothing has changed.

2 Cor 36:15 The Lord, the God of their ancestors, sent word to them through his messengers again and again, because he had pity on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

I disagree about Soloman, I believe he will be in God's Kingdom. Read the last chapter of Ecclesiastics- he repented. It goes to show how far away we can go away from Him, even like his father David did, but when one has a sincere heart and repents and changes their direction- Jesus is so just and faithful to forgive us. 1 Peter 1:9

This is one of Soloman's last words- words we should live by. Paul said something similar in 1 Cor 7:19

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear (revere) God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 most people teach we are saved in sin, but Jesus wants to change our hearts from the inside out and through Him we can keep His commandments and overcome sin. Sin is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us. He not only took the penalty for our sins, He showed us the righteous way to live and is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and the result is having the same faith of Jesus and keeping His commandments Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14.

I believe our time here is short- I can only imagine what it will be like in that Great Day!