All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[2ndTimothyGroup]

While it doesn't say he repented specifically his actions imply he repented.

In Romans 8- Paul describes what a lost man looks like

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

A lost man can't even subject themselves to God's law.

Ecclesiastics was written when Soloman was older

Soloman's last words in Ecclesiastics

Ecc 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

He talks about women being his snare

Ecc 7: 27And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. "28Here is what I have found,” says the Preacher, “Adding one thing to the other to find out the reason,

I believe he repented and will be in heaven, hopefully we will find out soon enough.

You may very well be right about these things! - However, it would take a leap of faith for a new believer to trust that Solomon repented of child sacrifice. People who sacrifice living children to the Devil belong to the Devil. What was his actual role? Scripture doesn't tell us. He may not have even been present to hear God's little ones scream as their flesh boiled by flame. But in my human eyes, this is amongst the greatest evil a person can commit on earth to another person . . . burning a child alive and doing it fully knowing that it is a Satanic process.

If Jesus Himself didn't refer to Solomon, I would use the life of Solomon to teach anything other than Righteousness and Holiness. Even the majority of his Proverbs are examples of mere human wisdom, which obviously availed him absolutely nothing. He was unhappy and incredibly depressed. This is not wisdom. His worldly wisdom ran him into the ground and into the arms of Abominations who burned little children alive. He followed his phallus and not his God. Solomon was a disgusting person for what he did and represents. Reading of Solomon's sexual exploits and conquests are repulsive and disgusting. I don't enjoy reading any of his Proverbs, because I know that his lousy wisdom leads him to the involvement of murdering little children. I have built a small sweat just writing about this character. Though Judas handed over Christ to be murdered, at least he didn't slaughter little children alive.

We're all different and see different things in Scripture and my feelings regarding Solomon may be shallow and incorrect. In the end, I know that God has a Plan, and that Solomon was and is a part of it. So, I trust God in all that He does within His Eternal and unstoppable Plan.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This is a very interesting point which I have looked at before. Difficult to reconcile, but to add a bit more to it;

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the lamb, standing on Mount Zion! With him were 144,000 people who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 They were singing a new song in front of the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.


Also Romans 11:26 is arguably a ref to Isaiah - which actual says that the redeemer will come to Zion & not come from Zion. It also mentions those that Repent.

Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

You also have;

Matt 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So, I would argue that not all will be saved, only those that will repent and the kingdom of God has been given to another nation as they did not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah.

I CANNOT . . . CANNOT believe that I forgot about the 144,000!!!! Question: Do you believe that this number is based upon those who are alive with beating hearts, or at these people of the dead, or are they a combination of both dead and living being caught into the sky with Christ?

I appreciate your help! If you see more posts from me in the future, I encourage you to please stop by and offer more help and advice! You have lots of good material in this post. Thank you!!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You may very well be right about these things! - However, it would take a leap of faith for a new believer to trust that Solomon repented of child sacrifice. People who sacrifice living children to the Devil belong to the Devil. What was his actual role? Scripture doesn't tell us. He may not have even been present to hear God's little ones scream as their flesh boiled by flame. But in my human eyes, this is amongst the greatest evil a person can commit on earth to another person . . . burning a child alive and doing it fully knowing that it is a Satanic process.

If Jesus Himself didn't refer to Solomon, I would use the life of Solomon to teach anything other than Righteousness and Holiness. Even the majority of his Proverbs are examples of mere human wisdom, which obviously availed him absolutely nothing. He was unhappy and incredibly depressed. This is not wisdom. His worldly wisdom ran him into the ground and into the arms of Abominations who burned little children alive. He followed his phallus and not his God. Solomon was a disgusting person for what he did and represents. Reading of Solomon's sexual exploits and conquests are repulsive and disgusting. I don't enjoy reading any of his Proverbs, because I know that his lousy wisdom leads him to the involvement of murdering little children. I have built a small sweat just writing about this character. Though Judas handed over Christ to be murdered, at least he didn't slaughter little children alive.

We're all different and see different things in Scripture and my feelings regarding Solomon may be shallow and incorrect. In the end, I know that God has a Plan, and that Solomon was and is a part of it. So, I trust God in all that He does within His Eternal and unstoppable Plan.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Soloman wrote at least 3 books in the bible. The only sin that Jesus will not forgive is the sin that we don't ask for forgiveness for and for His help overcoming. Everyone has sinned, there will be murderers in heaven- look at Moses. Its what we do with our sin that makes a difference.

I believe Soloman repented and can learn from his pitfalls, but to not think we can learn from his teachings, I think would be a mistake.

 

[Aaron56]

Wow. This is another very interesting thought that I've never heard or considered before. Jesus is the human and Christ is the Messiah. Is that what you mean?

I love it.

Christ is eternal, He has no beginning or end. Through Him everything was made,

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible..."

This includes all races of people. In time and space, He appeared on the earth as a Jew. There's much I could say about why that was necessary but I will only provide a brief summary: He was the answer to the curse of the Law AND He had to manifest as a child of promise, born of the Spirit of God. So, when we are reconciled to God in Christ we are brought back into the One who gave us our very being. This is true for all people. Christ, then, is a many-membered Body.

"For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many."

So, when we are in Christ, our race, our status, our sex is immaterial.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This occurs because of our faith in Christ.

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

It's important to note that this is our standing before God. While limited in our current bodies we can recognize one another by these differences. Some of these differences require certain conduct. ALL requirements, however, are designed for one purpose: to put on display Christ and the church. More broadly this is understood as the ministry of reconciliation.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Elijah was hiding in a cave believing he was the "last" true Follower of God when God informed him He had 7,000 men who had not bowed to baal. God always has a Remnant that we have no idea about.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I believe Soloman repented and can learn from his pitfalls, but to not think we can learn from his teachings, I think would be a mistake.

Exactly! I agree, which is why I wrote the following:

"I would use the life of Solomon to teach anything other than Righteousness and Holiness."

Careful! I never said that Solomon should be ignored.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Elijah was hiding in a cave believing he was the "last" true Follower of God when God informed him He had 7,000 men who had not bowed to baal. God always has a Remnant that we have no idea about.

Yes! There are so many examples of the Remnant in the Old Testament. How about the Remnant brought out of Captivity and back into the Holy Land. They all united with one mind and purpose. But perhaps even within the first generation after having come home, the Blessed Jews went right back at copulating with those of the Seven Nations, thus the process would begin all over again. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. I Love the Blessed Jews for what they were forced to endure; the very Plan of God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes! There are so many examples of the Remnant in the Old Testament. How about the Remnant brought out of Captivity and back into the Holy Land. They all united with one mind and purpose. But perhaps even within the first generation after having come home, the Blessed Jews went right back at copulating with those of the Seven Nations, thus the process would begin all over again. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. I Love the Blessed Jews for what they were forced to endure; the very Plan of God.

Amen!
I was sitting in a cafe when about 20 big bruiser, covered in tats looking bikers walked in. Those already inside suddenly became tensed up, women grabbing their purses, men becoming uneasy. And they took 3 tables and lined them up into a big table and all sat down. Very friendly and their conversation was clean among one another. They gave the waitress no hassle as she took their orders. When their food was set before them they all stood up, held hands, and prayed to Jesus for this Blessing.

I remember watching how shocked everyone was. They just assumed. But God always has a Remnant we are not aware of

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Exactly! I agree, which is why I wrote the following:

"I would use the life of Solomon to teach anything other than Righteousness and Holiness."

Careful! I never said that Solomon should be ignored.

I think Solomon did teach righteousness and holiness though.

Yes, he made a lot of mistakes and I can see why one wouldn't think he would make it. But he also taught some words to live by as well:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

God's teachings
Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

David's Teachings
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.

Paul's teachings
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Jesus teachings
If you love Me, keep My commandments

Which shows the fruit of a saved person

Rev 14:12 Revelation 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And reconciles us back to Christ

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

John said something similar as Solomon did in Rev 12:7
Rev 12:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

I think we can gain some wisdom from Soloman's teachings.

 

[Cameron143]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Soloman wrote at least 3 books in the bible. The only sin that Jesus will not forgive is the sin that we don't ask for forgiveness for and for His help overcoming. Everyone has sinned, there will be murderers in heaven- look at Moses. Its what we do with our sin that makes a difference.

I believe Soloman repented and can learn from his pitfalls, but to not think we can learn from his teachings, I think would be a mistake.

Everyone has unconfessed sin. No one is even aware of the extent of their sin.

 

[MerSee]

I think it means all who WILL become Israel will be saved.
Gentile and Jew alike.
A lot of us Christians forget that we are in effect Jewish through being grafted in to THE Jewish Messiah.

11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Amen!
I was sitting in a cafe when about 20 big bruiser, covered in tats looking bikers walked in. Those already inside suddenly became tensed up, women grabbing their purses, men becoming uneasy. And they took 3 tables and lined them up into a big table and all sat down. Very friendly and their conversation was clean among one another. They gave the waitress no hassle as she took their orders. When their food was set before them they all stood up, held hands, and prayed to Jesus for this Blessing.

I remember watching how shocked everyone was. They just assumed. But God always has a Remnant we are not aware of

Love this story! And it is so true, that we need to not judge by what we see on the outside, but judge by what is on the inside. Unfortunately, we live in such a dangerous and scary world, it might be wise for Christians to dress like it. Then again, God does as He does . . . who am I to suggest to Him what should be done! Shame on me.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Everyone has unconfessed sin. No one is even aware of the extent of their sin.

Thats why we have God's law.
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Not everyone has unconfessed sins. When we do away with the law- we no longer see our sins, which puts someone in a bad spot Heb 10:26-30, because they can't proposer by going to Jesus to receive His mercy, grace and sanctification. Proverbs 28:13 1 John 1:9. Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2. God wants us close to Him and why He wrote His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 when we go away from God's law our hearts are far from Him Mat 15:3-9. God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I think Solomon did teach righteousness and holiness though.

He certainly did teach things were Righteous and Holy. But were these his teachings, or the teachings of God through him?

I would certainly never, never suggest that a believer read of his disgusting lust for women, shagging them like all the others before his current women meant nothing. I can't imagine what women think and feel as they read of his lusting over women, though he's already got how many others? That material could actually be used by Satan to cause others to begin lusting . . . married men and women alike. Perhaps I am radically ignorant, and this is certainly possible, but if I wouldn't want my five year old child to hear of Solomon's sexual conquests, I wouldn't put in the Bible. But again, that's my limited, physical view. Learning how to share the Gospel of Christ; practicing it; learning the difference between the Gospel we would share with a Jew and Gentile . . . practicing them both. Learning and developing our understanding of how to explain the Gospel, rather than describing it; there is so much more to achieve and accomplish in the Story of God rather than reading about supple breasts.

Alright. I have to start this day!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

He certainly did teach things were Righteous and Holy. But were these his teachings, or the teachings of God through him?

I would certainly never, never suggest that a believer read of his disgusting lust for women, shagging them like all the others before his current women meant nothing. I can't imagine what women think and feel as they read of his lusting over women, though he's already got how many others? That material could actually be used by Satan to cause others to begin lusting . . . married men and women alike. Perhaps I am radically ignorant, and this is certainly possible, but if I wouldn't want my five year old child to hear of Solomon's sexual conquests, I wouldn't put in the Bible. But again, that's my limited, physical view. Learning how to share the Gospel of Christ; practicing it; learning the difference between the Gospel we would share with a Jew and Gentile . . . practicing them both. Learning and developing our understanding of how to explain the Gospel, rather than describing it; there is so much more to achieve and accomplish in the Story of God rather than reading about supple breasts.

Alright. I have to start this day!

He wouldn't be in God's Word if it wasn't through God. Like I said previously, he definitely fell, but if God forgives who are we not to? Solomon said women was his downfall (snare) so he knew he did wrong. Anyway, God knows his hearts and look if God can forgive Soloman there is so much hope for us!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This concept has bothered me for quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas of how we justify the two below, and apparently opposing concepts?

Romans 9:27 NLT – “And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
Romans 11:25-26 NLT – “I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.”

I'm studying this as I write, so any ideas would be helpful. Thanks!

And those of you who want to fight and nit-pick . . . please don't participate. You suck the joy right out of what we're trying to accomplish, here.

Are you asking that no one participate except those that agree with your interpretation of the scriptures?

I have an idea of how these two scriptures harmonize with one another, but it will not follow your interpretation of the scriptures.

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if we are to understand the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

If you are really honest in wanting ideas of justifying the two scriptures, I would be happy to discuss it with you, but if you feel that a discussion would result in fighting and nit-picking, just let me know, and I will not respond.

 

[Cameron143]

Thats why we have God's law.
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Not everyone has unconfessed sins. When we do away with the law- we no longer see our sins, which puts someone in a bad spot Heb 10:26-30, because they can't proposer by going to Jesus to receive His mercy, grace and sanctification. Proverbs 28:13 1 John 1:9. Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2. God wants us close to Him and why He wrote His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 when we go away from God's law our hearts are far from Him Mat 15:3-9. God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7

You made a statement that the only unforgiven sin is unconfessed sin. This is a false statement. Sin isn't forgiven because it's confessed, but because it's been paid for.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You made a statement that the only unforgiven sin is unconfessed sin. This is a false statement. Sin isn't forgiven because it's confessed, but because it's been paid for.

You will have to take that up with Jesus because His Word says otherwise. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21

Jesus started His ministry with:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is what happens to un-repented sin and sinners

Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Cameron143]

You will have to take that up with Jesus because His Word says otherwise. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21

Jesus started His ministry with:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is what happens to un-repented sin and sinners

Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So sins that haven't been paid for are forgiven?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok. When I read this I said out loud, "What a trip."

That thought has never crossed my mind, which means that I've never heard it before. That's what I'm talking about!

But . . . will these Jews, now turned Israel, be grafted back in?

Any removed branches can be regrafted but they have to have faith in Jesus.

So, when Paul wrote the following, are you saying that the Jews in this passage are actually Gentiles?

Veddy, veddy interesting.

Yes in spiritual terms. Israel is the one unique olive tree and gentiles are also olive trees but growing in the wild. If the natural branches of the unique tree have no faith and are removed, they are like the Gentile branches except these removed branches aren't even on any wild olive tree. They are in a worse situation having lost their place in Israel.