Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[maxamir]

Did I say that? No, I did not. I said Christ died for the Whole world as the word of God says He was given for in John 3:16 Jesus speaking. No, I did say it was based on their choice.

You assume that and interject that thought because you believe it is that way IF one doesn't hold to your understanding.

As Jesus said, His Father would say that NONE should Parish. Just as Adam has the free will to obey or not obey, men and women have the ability to reject great salvation. Doing so is not transferred as a work of salvation. That is a false narrative.

Just like saying receiving a Gift is a form of work. It is not. That is an opinion. Nothing in the word of God suggests receiving a gift is a "work."

The issue is when (IMHO) people try to force others into a doctrinal position when I have the freedom NOT to agree with it.
I am not a Calvinist or Armian. I am saved by Grace through Faith, Not of works less any man should boast. A gift from God that I have received.

Is a slave free to do whatever he wants? Was Christ wrong to say that all who commit sin are slaves to sin? Do you believe in the doctrine of original sin or not?

The problem with people like yourself is that you do not know who you are because you do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture and somehow think that there is some kind of goodness in you that you could choose God when Scripture confirms that all are spiritually dead and cursed since the Fall unless somehow you think God lied to Adam in Genesis 2:17?

Until God humbles you and brings you to wits end, you will never know Him or truly call upon Him to be saved and will be left judicially blinded to think that somehow you can save yourself.

Even worse, some of you think God is unfair if He chose any for salvation!

 

[maxamir]

Hmm, really well. Let's just put that to the test, shall we Because actions speak the truth, too.

The woman at the well was a sinner. Jesus did not display love for her? John chapter 4.

The woman caught in the very act of Adultery Jesus did not show love to her either, right? John 8:1-11

Those who tried out to Jesus for Him to have mercy on and he healed them, was that not an act of love?

Jesus on the Cross: " Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34.



It is amazing those who claim to be the elect of God are so quick to judge others based on their "election. "

Those who try to make some text Elite, at the expense of all Truth in God's word.

I also find it funny that Mr. Pink, says from both sides of his mouth.

With "exception" reduces the Lord to a "Perfect Teacher" when The Lord Jesus is the Supreme authority whenever he is Speaking.
And John 3:16 has other parallel scriptures to support what Jesus said; however, Jesus's word stands alone.

Mr. Pink, that is a very Strong "Exception," sir! Take you take issue with.

I see you can not give an answer to what was said by Pink and still believe that God loves everyone, even those He justly casts into Hell.

It's really quite simple. Those God loves, He saves, and those He hates, He does not save.

But God doesn't hate anyone you think?


Here are eighteen Scripture texts on God’s hatred of the reprobate:

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​

For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​

For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​

The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​

The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​

Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​

Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​

I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^

G3860 - paredōken / paradidómi (Romans 1:24, 26, 28) -


Romans 1:24 V-AIA-3S
GRK: Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ
NAS: God gave them over in the lusts
KJV: gave them up to uncleanness
INT: Therefore gave up them

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore God gave them up in the desires of their hearts to impurity to dishonor their bodies between themselves,

King James Bible
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

New King James Version
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

NASB 1995
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.



Romans 1:26 V-AIA-3S
GRK: Διὰ τοῦτο παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ
NAS: God gave them over to degrading
KJV: gave them up unto vile
INT: because of this gave up them

Berean Literal Bible
Because of this, God gave up them to passions of dishonor. For even their females changed the natural use into that contrary to nature.

King James Bible
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

New King James Version
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

NASB 1995
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,



Romans 1:28 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ
NAS: any longer, God gave them over to a depraved
KJV: gave them over to a reprobate
INT: in [their] knowledge gave up them

Berean Literal Bible
And as they did not see fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do things not being proper;

King James Bible
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

New King James Version
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

NASB 1995
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,





What's this ^ ?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

hates the reprobate which are created to glorify His perfectly good, holy, just and eternal wrath but you do not know this side of God's goodness and do not yet understand the cross of Christ .

That's not goodness. Nor does it make sense. Either God is a liar, or Calvin was a frustrated between two dogmas, the Catholic church that brain washes you completely and the truth. God says He wishes that none perish, you say He loves it and created people to destroy. I'm going with what God said and not some muddled mixed up Catholic dude who saw himself as pope and helped get a man executed.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Ahh so all this evil is Gods fault? He created evil. Everything that ever happens is because He allows it to happen, in fact He caused it to happen.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

View attachment 262894

What a moronic thing to say!! Of course Mac Arthur would say that, he thinks he won the "salvation lottery"!! As the kids would say "sucks to be you". That's what happens when heresy is taken to the extreme. There is always an elite looking down on other souls saying "sucks to be you! Too bad you're not like me. I'm special to God." The arrogance of this belief is stupefying! Only to be surpassed by the horrific brain washing.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

He said it because He hated Him, before he was born. That's why, nice and simple. There's no need to get into a twist over it

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

So to serve the Lord I must hate my entire family.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Which is it? Did God forget what He said maybe?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I know Gods truth is not always pleasant, sometimes it's so bitter that many find it unbearable. I understand, so don't worry I'm not your judge. You can do whatever pleases you.

God's truth is perfect. Yours is twisted if you believe in Calvin, the french pope.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I can't see why that's not biblically correct,
.

I know you don't, and that's the problem.

The so called wise guys ae forever seeking and learning but they never come to the knowledge of saving faith.
.

That's not true. You don't believe that. They can't seek God and even if they could He'd laugh at them, tell them they were created for destruction so He can show off His powers. They didn't win the salvation lottery. They are born doomed from a baby. Look at those happy baby faces, I wonder if they know God hates them and made them to live a doomed life to end up in hell.

All we have to teach and instruct is the same old Bible which the ancient people had 2000 years ago. Every generation has had the same old gospel message and God has been silent for the past 2000 years. Calvin was a Great man of God, he divided the Church into two camps and the whole world is talking about him to this day.
False prophets are quickly forgotten and everyone forgets they ever existed, but Calvin will remain famous among the giants of Gods faithful men forever.

Perhaps they don't know the real Calvin, the french pope. Perhaps they don't know he had a man put to death because he believed differently from Calvin. And he may not have been the only person Calvins opinion swayed their death sentence. I hope Calvin was giant of a man enough to repent of what he did.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That doesn't negate the fact that God hated Esau, while he was still in his mothers womb.

Yet it does not say this, It does not say this anyplace in scripture.. Your adding to the word somethign that is not there

Regardless of of the passage of time. God said it and you either accept God Word or you reject Gods Word. You can't dance around the question and bring up things which don't change or challenge the fact.

Oh I accept it..

1. The word hate actually is a bad term. God tells us we must HATE our parents. We must HATE our children and our spouses. Yet in the same time, God says we must love them.

The term actually means to love less.

God loves or cherished Jacob more than he did Esau. Because God set Jacob apart for a purpose.

I don't understand why so many people can't stand Gods Word as it is, so they desperately try to change it's meaning. Why can't we just accept it and move on.

I do accept it. why are YOU trying to change it?

And you need to back off your pride dude. Your self righteousness is filling the room with a stink!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Again, you prove my point. You say there is a third option but you constantly fail to describe this mysterious non existent option. Every time you fail to provide evidence of it's existence, only con firm that I'm right.

It's obvious you don't even know what Calvinism and Arminianism mean, so how can you comment about a subject you know nothing about.

well lets see.

I am not arminian, Because I believe in eternal security
Yet I am not calvinist because I reject most points of Tulip

So you tell me.

Are you going to tell me what I believe?

There are many options..

My option actually consists of total free will of every human being, yet eternal security of the soul..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Because they can't believe, nor do they want to believe, that Christ really is the Saviour and they're not, Charlie_2024.

Another reason this debate is childish.

The false accusations and bearing false witness that comes from both sides is amazing.

Sorry But, God saved me, i had nothing to do with it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Now you're denying Gods order. He appointed Shepherds to watch over us venerable and gullible and Sheep.

There's nothing more silly and dangerous than a rouge sheep, blindly wondering around the jungle with a hungry lion tracking it. So with all due respect, I must reject your advice as like deadly poison.

I obey Gods order and design, by joining the flock with a faithful accountable Shepherd to watch over us. As Sheep, you and I don't have the gift of discernment. So we can never rightly divide the Word, that's why we all disagree with each other here.

We're just sheep acting like Shepherds. It's like the blind leading the blind, both fall into the ditch

The only thing dangerous is blindly following any man because they claim to be sent from God.

You want to do this, feel free.

Eternity is far to long to put my eternity in the hands of a sinner who needs or needed saved like I did

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well I have very bad news for you. Calvin's God is the God of the Bible. So you're mocking and cursing the God of the bible.

Nah,

The God of the bible is a God of love, Not a God of hate that made everyone robots.\

Thats the God satan wants us to see.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Another reason this debate is childish.

The false accusations and bearing false witness that comes from both sides is amazing.

Sorry But, God saved me, i had nothing to do with it.

Of course God saved you and me too. You'd be daft to believe anything else. But that doesn't mean we also don't have free will. You cannot have love if you don't have free will. Which the Calvinist admits because they believe God forces people to love Him.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

and those who believe are those who by grace alone are granted true faith, not in their faith but in the person and work of Christ.

Gods grace is offered to everyone, God is not going to turn someone away.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Yes, it is not by any work I did, i did not save myself. I was saved by Grace by recieving him in faith.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Yep, anyone who comes to him will be granted access to him, and to suffer.;

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Amen, Abraham had faith, and through this faith righteousness was imputed on Abraham's account.

Act 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Yep. thank you, you keep proving my point for me.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

absolutely not!

God's love is perfect because it perfectly saves those He loves. It is eternal and not temporary.

I agree 100 %

But you can;t have perfect love if you do not love all your creation,

Jer 31:3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If you think God loves absolutely every person including those He justly casts into Hell then you will have to deal with the 18 verses below which plainly state that God hates, despises and abhors the wicked reprobate.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).​

And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​

For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​

For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​

The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​

The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​

Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​

Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​

I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​

Oh He loves them, He was willing that non should perish. But they rejected him.

He did nto reject them, thats why he can be just and loving at the same time, and thats also why for eternity the deniers will have no argument.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

the reason why they received Him is because He made them born again by His Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel, drew them to Himself and granted them the repentance and faith He justly commands from all people.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Hos_11:4 I drew them with gentle cords, With bands of love, And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Psa 119:49 Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

WRONG

You have them born again IN SIN.

They are dead BECAUSE OF SIN, The sin issue MUST be removed before they can be made alive,

That is how redemption and justification works..

Justification PRECEDES regeneration. It is required if God is a perfect judge,.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God is perfectly good and just in choosing some to glorify His grace and others to glorify His wrath. If you have a problem with that then you do not yet know your clayness.

Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Romans 9 is the most highlighted chapter in the whole Bible for Arminians!

View attachment 262893

1. I am not arminian. And you call yourself a Christian? bearing false witness is a sin, or did you forget that?
2. God is not just if he does that, nor is he a God of love

God is both just and love because God died for all.. Anyone who is cast to hell has no one to blame but themselves. Because they rejected the thing that could save them.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

the gift is faith!

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Why do you not yet read your Bible?

If I hated God I would not be here defending His glorious Gospel from being perverted by those who whether they realise it or not are robbing Him of the glory of His salvation by giving it to the choice of men.

NO

The gift is SALVATION.

Did I read my bible? Yes. I read it with an open mind and heart. Sadly, your mind is closed

For it is BY GRACE we have BEEN SAVED.

It is salvation, not faith.. ALthough faith is a gift also. in context. it does not fit in this passage.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

what you have described is postdestination and not predestination.

God did not look into the future, see who would choose Him , then return before time and choose them because He saw them choose Him!

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

To foreknow is to have an intimate relationship with someone just as Joseph did not know Mary before they were married.

Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Luk_1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

God knew His people before He created them and loved them enough to send Christ to save them.

The question everyone must ask themselves is not have I chosen God but has God chosen me?

yawn.

Dude, go study Gods word then get back to me, I would focus on God and his character.

because you do not understand God at all.