The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Niki7]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

 

[wattie]

I think here you have the difference between an entire nation having being given a pre-set plan of destiny.. verses one individual.

So if Israel is called 'the elect'.. then that's the whole nation. They have been elected for a certain purpose/destiny. This isn't about eternal salvation necessarily.. but that in the end the nation has a planned end. So for eg.. God getting them together as a complete nation. That wasn't to do with their eternal salvation.. but God's plan to reunite them as one people.

Now so in this .. some of the Israelites have actually entrusted their salvation, by free will to Jesus. So they now have heaven pre-destined as a place they will go. Not that God had chosen them exclusively from others beyond their free will to have eternal life.. but that when they believed.. heaven was set as a place for them.

The other part of predestination.. is the planned destiny God has for His churches. What will happen with people who have been faithful in His churches.. is a different place in heaven to those who rejected His system of churches and went out on their own. Not that they will be sent to hell.. but have less rewards than a faithful church member.

So.. predestination has multi-facets.

The individual believer-- a place in heaven is predestined for them.
The faithful believer-- they have more rewards preset for them for being faithful.
An entire nation-- God has protected the likes of Israel and has a destiny for them in the end

 

[Magenta]

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

 

[homwardbound]

What I see as predestined is:

The First Chosen The Israelites, descendants of Abram

Then Moses came in as a leader to hear from God and tell the first Chosen what God wants.
Now, God did speak to them in the desert with Thunder and Lightening in Deuteronomy. And the people sore afraid said, no, give us Moses
So God did that. (a partial predestination fulfillment) As Moses in Deuteronomy 18 spoke of the Christ to come and for us to listen to him, over Moses.
Then the First Chosen wanted Saul as their King and God gave them Saul, who was not a believer (Yet a believer) just not in trust to God. God told Samuel that the people are not rejecting Samuel, (the Prophet of God), they are rejecting God. They wanted a Human leader, a king.

As that is when the predestination of blood had to get put in place as a part of the plan. sacrifices, began in order to get forgiven, (year after year) as there was then no final forgiveness as of yet, none. Then the Christ the final sacrifice of blood won for us as reconciled forgiven by God Father to us (2 Cor 5:17-20) We the people to see (It Is Finished,John 19:30) get, got forgiven by God at that cross, forever in that final shedding of the shed blood of Son for us to now either believe God, it is done or not. Then one might take this for granted as others might not, and are sincere in belief, the Son is risen and by God are forgiven. (1 John 2:1-4,12) As Paul spoke of this truth about being content in it, whether one believes or not, Christ is preached, therefore, Paul remained content in it whether one truly believes or not in the Son for them or not. Paul trusted, (S) God to reach out to each person personally in God's Holy Spirit in God's spirit and Truth for them too, (John 4:24) As the wind comes and goes no one knows from where it came or where it goes, the wind is actually spirit for us from God, the Father gf the risen Son, to be revealed truth to us and be born new in God's spirit and Truth to hear and see clearly.
God might, may know who will believe and who will not believe, yet there seems to me, to be a chance for another one to stand in belief to God as of yet. Otherwise I see it would all have ended now.
The plan all along is to save us in love, mercy and truth in our Soul's. the flesh still dies, might as well reckon self did to the flesh then to be alive in God's Spirit and truth (Romans 6)

God as in Jeremiah 29:11, states this:

Jeremiah 29:11

Authorized (King James) Version

11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

So, as I see this predestination was God seeing way in the future from Genesis


Son then and there predicted by God Father to be here on earth and be King of Heaven for us to now be able to enter in by his death, burial, proof of death, and then resurrection to stand in belief to this King for us to be new in the Spirit gf God to us. To see new and not physically any more


Psalm 100:4

Authorized (King James) Version

4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving,
and into his courts with praise:
be thankful unto him, and bless his name.


Psalm 103:12

Authorized (King James) Version

12 As far as the east is from the west,
so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Jeremiah 29:11

Authorized (King James) Version

11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

 

[Niki7]

Well maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I am asking with referral to saved people....believers.

I'm really not referring to the Israelites or the sacrifical system ordained by God and not asking about reformed or non- reformed beliefs, but I am wondering about this concept of elect Christians and non elect Christians, both being saved, but the first set having no choice and the 2nd set having a choice.

I hope that is clearer. But thanks for the responses for so far.

 

[Niki7]

I think here you have the difference between an entire nation having being given a pre-set plan of destiny.. verses one individual.

So if Israel is called 'the elect'.. then that's the whole nation. They have been elected for a certain purpose/destiny. This isn't about eternal salvation necessarily.. but that in the end the nation has a planned end. So for eg.. God getting them together as a complete nation. That wasn't to do with their eternal salvation.. but God's plan to reunite them as one people.

Now so in this .. some of the Israelites have actually entrusted their salvation, by free will to Jesus. So they now have heaven pre-destined as a place they will go. Not that God had chosen them exclusively from others beyond their free will to have eternal life.. but that when they believed.. heaven was set as a place for them.

The other part of predestination.. is the planned destiny God has for His churches. What will happen with people who have been faithful in His churches.. is a different place in heaven to those who rejected His system of churches and went out on their own. Not that they will be sent to hell.. but have less rewards than a faithful church member.

So.. predestination has multi-facets.

The individual believer-- a place in heaven is predestined for them.
The faithful believer-- they have more rewards preset for them for being faithful.
An entire nation-- God has protected the likes of Israel and has a destiny for them in the end

Interesting concept...Israel as a whole being called...God's decision and a Jewish person accepting Christ now, meaning choice.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it seems you lean towards the reformed position? I was not really asking about that though and you can correct me if I am wrong.

I am actually wondering what people think about the word elect meaning a special class of people who God has decided will be saved and then the 2nd group, while not elect (that is foreordained) can be saved through their choice to believe. In other words, both groups are saved but one group had no choice and the other did. I do not see this as a biblical truth myself but have seen it presented in this forum.

 

[John146]

I am wondering about this concept of elect Christians and non elect Christians, both being saved, but the first set having no choice and the 2nd set having a choice.

Election has nothing to do with salvation. Election is God's choosing an individual, a nation, even angels, to be in service for him. Jesus Christ is God's elect. Isaiah 42:1.

 

[wattie]

Interesting concept...Israel as a whole being called...God's decision and a Jewish person accepting Christ now, meaning choice.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it seems you lean towards the reformed position? I was not really asking about that though and you can correct me if I am wrong.

I am actually wondering what people think about the word elect meaning a special class of people who God has decided will be saved and then the 2nd group, while not elect (that is foreordained) can be saved through their choice to believe. In other words, both groups are saved but one group had no choice and the other did. I do not see this as a biblical truth myself but have seen it presented in this forum.

No-- not reformed. Not calvinist, nor armenian.

I don't see a special class being decided to be saved regardless of belief.. I agree.

I was meaning Israel.. not actually being every one converted to believe in Jesus.. but protected as a nation. And then individuals in Israel who believe in Jesus and get saved.

I am neither arminian nor calvinist

 

[Magenta]

I am neither arminian nor calvinist

Nor am I, though some Calvinists insist you must be one or the other as if there is no other choice in
the matter. Those that do busy themselves trying to pound round pegs into square holes... or vice versa.
I have even seen it said by such that if you are not Calvinist, they doubt you are saved .

 

[The_old_guy]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

How about this Calvinistic idea? God's has his plan for salvation of all believers that he decided from before creation, while all believers have full responsibility to choose God to be saved. It is a mystery how those two biblical truths work together, but they do.

 

[wattie]

Nor am I, though some Calvinists insist you must be one or the other as if there is no other choice in
the matter. Those that do busy themselves trying to pound round pegs into square holes... or vice versa.

yeah.. for sure. It's like they can't see the bible any other way aside from Arminian or Calvin.

But yea.. I see pre destination as like jumbo jets that are going to a destination and always will get to that destination.. but to get on the jet you gotta believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Niki7]

No-- not reformed. Not calvinist, nor armenian.

I don't see a special class being decided to be saved regardless of belief.. I agree.

I was meaning Israel.. not actually being every one converted to believe in Jesus.. but protected as a nation. And then individuals in Israel who believe in Jesus and get saved.

I am neither arminian nor calvinist

Well we agree on the 'I am not a...fill in the blanks' Yes I did see where you meant Israel, and again, I find that an interesting comparison but maybe I am missing something, but I did not see that playing into what I am referring to?

Then again, I totally concur with your comment on a 'special class'. Probably we are closer to agreement than not and just expressing our thoughts somewhat differently.

Thanks

 

[Niki7]

Election has nothing to do with salvation. Election is God's choosing an individual, a nation, even angels, to be in service for him. Jesus Christ is God's elect. Isaiah 42:1.

We agree as far as salvation and election. So then, would you concur that there are not 2 ways to be saved? ie: one God has elected you for salvation (not special purpose but salvation in particular) but there is another class that has a choice whether or not to accept Christ?

Thanks

 

[Niki7]

How about this Calvinistic idea? God's has his plan for salvation of all believers that he decided from before creation, while all believers have full responsibility to choose God to be saved. It is a mystery how those two biblical truths work together, but they do.

There is mystery in all of it for sure. I do not think I have ever heard an explanation to the whole thing where a light goes off and everyone can say 'amen'.

I tend to believe that God knows who will accept Jesus in the future tense and that is addressed in the past tense because time does not limit God. He is. Neither past, or future and present is how we mostly think of Him I guess.

I do believe, as scripture indicates, that God makes availble to each of us that moment when we can accept or not. For myself, it was at the age of 5.

 

[Niki7]

yeah.. for sure. It's like they can't see the bible any other way aside from Arminian or Calvin.

But yea.. I see pre destination as like jumbo jets that are going to a destination and always will get to that destination.. but to get on the jet you gotta believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

visually satisfying description

 

[Nehemiah6]

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter.

It does not exist. Anyone who talks about "the elect" being saved automatically says that "the non-elect" cannot be saved. Anyway, it s all baloney.

 

[Mem]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

Is this the same school of thought that includes a first earth age in the determination? I had searched using those key search terms and the engine retrieved a website authored by a husband-and-wife ministry team. I didn't save it but only regret not tagging it because it might've helped your inquiry here. I even tried to 'refind' I must've left out a certain search term I had used previously. However, wiki brought up Arnold Murray, " Arnold Murray taught a version of pre-adamism, suggesting that "those who served God are predestined to salvation, while those who served Satan are cursed with free will and the opportunity to choose God or Satan in this lifetime."[3] "

 

[awelight]

Well maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I am asking with referral to saved people....believers.

I'm really not referring to the Israelites or the sacrifical system ordained by God and not asking about reformed or non- reformed beliefs, but I am wondering about this concept of elect Christians and non elect Christians, both being saved, but the first set having no choice and the 2nd set having a choice.

I hope that is clearer. But thanks for the responses for so far.

There are only two distinct classes of people discussed in the Bible. However, they are not the two you described above. (Elect Christians and Non-Elect Christians),

I will leave out the distinction between Jew and Gentile, since this has no ref. to persons being brought into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. Both have been saved and are being saved.

The two classes are: Those who belong to God and His Christ and those who belong to the Devil or if you prefer: Those who are saved and those who are not. Another way to look at these two distinct groups is: Those who are Regenerated and those who are still Unregenerate.

Your question asks: Can both be saved? I will get back to that in a moment. First, let's clear up the other part of your question. Elect Christians having no choice and Non-Elect Christians having a choice. This is a bizarre notion for both groups. If one is Non-Elect... and therefore, Non-Predestinated by God, then their choice would be to remain in their sins because this agrees with their fallen nature. If one is Elect... and Predestinated by God, then their choice will be to Repent and Believe because God has changed their nature.

So then: Can both be saved? No. God must act before the individual can act out of a new nature. This is the difference between Elect and Non-Elect.

It has been my experience, over nearly 40 years as a believer, that the problem many have in understanding God's Plan for Salvation, is either in their misunderstanding of the "Fallenness" of mankind or in misunderstanding whom God really is or both.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

fake Calvinist and fake Armenians.

Gods life exist in every person from the get go.

His laws is wrote on all hearts probably at the age of accountability.

God also divinely sows a seed in all as written in scripture and spoken by Jean Calvin himself.

But along the way it falls by the way side. Can it be resown well yes.

To think Gods has only one seed for each person, would be counting seeds, like when do you do the gardening sometimes seeds don't hatch or they get stolen.

I mean would you go and buy a bag a seeds that contain a million seeds in one bag and say to one million people, your only getting one seed each ?

The condition of people in the old testament are now in a better place for the new.

Now time to dance and time to get lively

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

There are only two distinct classes of people discussed in the Bible. However, they are not the two you described above. (Elect Christians and Non-Elect Christians),

I will leave out the distinction between Jew and Gentile, since this has no ref. to persons being brought into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. Both have been saved and are being saved.

The two classes are: Those who belong to God and His Christ and those who belong to the Devil or if you prefer: Those who are saved and those who are not. Another way to look at these two distinct groups is: Those who are Regenerated and those who are still Unregenerate.

Your question asks: Can both be saved? I will get back to that in a moment. First, let's clear up the other part of your question. Elect Christians having no choice and Non-Elect Christians having a choice. This is a bizarre notion for both groups. If one is Non-Elect... and therefore, Non-Predestinated by God, then their choice would be to remain in their sins because this agrees with their fallen nature. If one is Elect... and Predestinated by God, then their choice will be to Repent and Believe because God has changed their nature.

So then: Can both be saved? No. God must act before the individual can act out of a new nature. This is the difference between Elect and Non-Elect.

It has been my experience, over nearly 40 years as a believer, that the problem many have in understanding God's Plan for Salvation, is either in their misunderstanding of the "Fallenness" of mankind or in misunderstanding whom God really is or both.

Nobody belongs to the devil, that's not a good box you have there

People only belong to God.

John 1 says everything that has been made has been made by Jesus.