Jesus Was Made Perfect?

[John146]

I hear what you're saying, but the principle doesn't really make sense to me. What are we to say about those who practice bestiality? Or, any other sin? Must christ experience sin in order to help those who struggle with it?

Yes or no, was Christ tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin? Christ doesn't have to actually sin to experience the temptation to sin. Christ, being tempted, can now help us overcome the temptation without it getting to the point of sin. In other works, Christ can now be touched with the feelings of our infirmities.

Hebrews 4:
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How are you using the word "perfect"? Biblically, perfect never means sinless. Jesus was always sinless, but he was being made perfect through his temptations and earthly experiences. Perfect meaning, complete, whole, not lacking.

Has God in heaven ever experience what it's like to be thirsty? Had he ever been in a human body of flesh and experienced hunger? The bible states that God has never been tempted. But when God became flesh and dwelt among us, he was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin.

Indeed well Put

this made mans salvation impossible

“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We had no intercessor between God and mankind because we had all become sinful

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-

because there was no one worthy to intercede he became a man like we are only he never sinned in reality he was proving to the world that he was a perfect man and not so much becoming a perfect man his perfection was tested and he won out and never failed or faultered like we all do that’s what makes his sacrifice acceptable

He became the perfect man subjected to all man is subjected to in our flesh and he obeyed God completely feeling our pain infirmities and the terrible pull sin has on the flesh of mankind . The difference is he overcame and obeyed God always never sinning then he gave his life which was not required for his sins because he had none

A perfect man’s life covers the repentant sinners life that believes

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I am about to start writing on the first six chapters of Hebrews, and no doubt about it, I'll be coming back to this thread throughout the day. You guys have been wonderful . . . just amazing.

Thank you all so much for the mature, Christian manner in which we have come together with kindness and gentleness. It is so important that we treat each other this way, for we cannot afford to push people away because of our arguing. We don't want unbelievers to blaspheme the Name of the Lord because of us.

 

[John146]

I am about to start writing on the first six chapters of Hebrews, and no doubt about it, I'll be coming back to this thread throughout the day. You guys have been wonderful . . . just amazing.

Thank you all so much for the mature, Christian manner in which we have come together with kindness and gentleness. It is so important that we treat each other this way, for we cannot afford to push people away because of our arguing. We don't want unbelievers to blaspheme the Name of the Lord because of us.

Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-22, 24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am about to start writing on the first six chapters of Hebrews, and no doubt about it, I'll be coming back to this thread throughout the day. You guys have been wonderful . . . just amazing.

Thank you all so much for the mature, Christian manner in which we have come together with kindness and gentleness. It is so important that we treat each other this way, for we cannot afford to push people away because of our arguing. We don't want unbelievers to blaspheme the Name of the Lord because of us.

hebrews may be the wealthiest book in the Bible pertaining to deep understanding I hope your study is blessed and the lord makes it fruitful

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

hebrews may be the wealthiest book in the Bible pertaining to deep understanding I hope your study is blessed and the lord makes it fruitful

Thank you so much! The notes I've compiled over the years are kind of a lot, I guess. And again, thank you. I highly recommend that everyone summarize every chapter of the Bible based upon a timeline, chronological order. Pick what you think are the four most critical themes that bind the entire Bible together, and point out each of those moments. Today is 355 for me and I am so tired! I have loved it; such a rewarding thing to do, but it is exhausting, and especially now that I'm in the New Testament. While in the Old Testament, I was telling myself, "Man! I can't wait to get to the New Testament and see how all of these things are related and unfold" . . . but it is literally four times the amount of required time and effort. Romans 4-7 was a ridiculous 22 pages, and I'm afraid that Hebrews 1-6 will be just the same, for as you say, it may be the wealthiest Book in the Bible. It will be difficult, but I am excited because I know that I will learn things that I've never realized before, and you guys have already prepared me for this day . . . and even the two remaining study days of Hebrews.

Let's go!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you so much! The notes I've compiled over the years are kind of a lot, I guess. And again, thank you. I highly recommend that everyone summarize every chapter of the Bible based upon a timeline, chronological order. Pick what you think are the four most critical themes that bind the entire Bible together, and point out each of those moments. Today is 355 for me and I am so tired! I have loved it; such a rewarding thing to do, but it is exhausting, and especially now that I'm in the New Testament. While in the Old Testament, I was telling myself, "Man! I can't wait to get to the New Testament and see how all of these things are related and unfold" . . . but it is literally four times the amount of required time and effort. Romans 4-7 was a ridiculous 22 pages, and I'm afraid that Hebrews 1-6 will be just the same, for as you say, it may be the wealthiest Book in the Bible. It will be difficult, but I am excited because I know that I will learn things that I've never realized before, and you guys have already prepared me for this day . . . and even the two remaining study days of Hebrews.

Let's go!

Well your excitement for scripture study is encouraging !! That’s part of our path in life in my opinion indeed I pray it’s a blessed study

remember Hebrews is quite often quoting from the Old Testament scriptures That helps with that book a lot because the quotes used for support sort of interrupt the flow of what they are saying

For example these are all quotes from the ot used to support what the book is beginning to explain about Jesus and the New Testament

“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee?( pslam 2) And again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? (1 chrinicles 17:13 )

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, And his ministers a flame of fire.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, And they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:5-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything in bold is quotes from the ot scriptures . It’s easy to see Hebrews as a difficult book this is part of the reason why . The authors begin a point then n the middle they are using quotes from scripture to support what they are saying then they return to the point they began making

if your able to remove the quotes for a moment it makes much better sense what thier points are that are being made

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Hola Scholars! You know, I remember seeing the below Scripture many times, but have never taken the time to investigate it. Check it out . . .

Hebrews 5:8-9 NIV - "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him . . ."

I've looked at quite a few different translations and the idea is consistent . . . that Jesus was somehow changed to a point of perfection. In fact, now that I think of it, and I may be wrong here, but I think within the Davidic Covenant, there is a passage that states that if Jesus sins, he will be punished for His wrongdoing. 2 Sam 07:11-16

Guys . . . What thoughts come to mind?

Made "Mature" would be better for understanding, when Jesus was born, like all babies, he didn't even know where His nose was, and He (as a human being) had to go through the process of "Maturing" like we all do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This requires wisdom.

It's at the very beginning:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

This was a covenant with God the Father and God the Son. Although Adam was created, he did not continue on according to the rules of the covenant.

This extended to Abraham:

"For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself..."

This was an agreement among God. Abraham received the promises of the agreement. AS I've said before, this is like a child receiving the benefits of a husband and wife entering into a loving marriage.

Later, we see that the payment for this covenant was made before the earth was made:

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Son paid the price for the covenant before the earth was made. And, because God is just, He obligated Himself to meet the requirements of the covenant. The requirements of the covenant was this:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

He was ordained to do what he did in the beginning , and came forth when the time was fulfilled at this point

“who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods plan in the beginning came to fulfillment in the gospel. It’s the difference in when the plan was made ( before the world was ) and when the plan was carried out ( the gospel) to be fore ordained doesn’t mean you’ve already done it it means you are ordained to do it

prophecy and then fulfilment

 

[Aaron56]

He was ordained to do what he did in the beginning , and came forth when the time was fulfilled at this point

“who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods plan in the beginning came to fulfillment in the gospel. It’s the difference in when the plan was made ( before the world was ) and when the plan was carried out ( the gospel) to be fore ordained doesn’t mean you’ve already done it it means you are ordained to do it

prophecy and then fulfilment

Of course.

Eternal things become the reality to man in the fullness of time. Nevertheless, those same things are the reality of God even before time begins.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course.

Eternal things become the reality to man in the fullness of time. Nevertheless, those same things are the reality of God even before time begins.

yes brother I was just making the point that it’s all one plan but took time to actually come to fulfillment

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point was only that Jesus wasn’t actually slain until the gospel when the time for atonement had come

“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ( what you were saying )

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”( what I was saying )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭


The word became flesh the promise came to pass , the scriptures were fulfilled which he spoke beforehand

“And God said, Let there be light:


and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s always how Gods word works he speaks creation then later it comes to fruition everything is that way. Even mans salvation

just showing how God says something and then at the appointed time is when it is fulfilled and becomes active and effective in tbe world

 

[Aaron56]

yes brother I was just making the point that it’s all one plan but took time to actually come to fulfillment

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point was only that Jesus wasn’t actually slain until the gospel when the time for atonement had come

“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ( what you were saying )

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”( what I was saying )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭


The word became flesh the promise came to pass , the scriptures were fulfilled which he spoke beforehand

“And God said, Let there be light:


and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s always how Gods word works he speaks creation then later it comes to fruition everything is that way. Even mans salvation

just showing how God says something and then at the appointed time is when it is fulfilled and becomes active and effective in tbe world

Yes.

There must be an appearing of the thing before that thing affects creation as a whole.

Yet, we see how, in the OT, two different economies existed even as one (the Law) constrained the people. Without an economy greater than the Law David could not have eaten the showbread in the temple without being harmed. There was, for several people after God's heart, appearances of something greater in the earth beyond their rational knowledge. We see appearances of this divine reality all throughout scripture, from OT to NT.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Now into chapter 5, I can see the focus on the humanity of Jesus. It seems like an entirely new concept is about to unfold (for me) . . . which is strange.

Somewhere early in this thread I mentioned the transition that Jesus would undergo so as to be made whole, complete, perfect, or as just noted above, "mature." This transition would be as follows:

Hebrews 5:5 NLT - "That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father."

What a trip! Literally thinking out-loud here, so forgive me . . . but what "Day" did Jesus become the Lord's Son? Wasn't Jesus being taught by the Spirit while within Mary's womb as was David? Wasn't Jesus being taught by the Spirit while at Mary's breast, as was David? Or, was this Day the Day when the Spirit of God descended upon Him after the water Baptism of John? Or, was it the Day Jesus rose from the dead? Interesting. Very interesting. My heart is telling me that it was the Holy Day of His Resurrection. This makes sense, for the Lord reminds us of this Day each morning the Sun Rises and Shines upon us. Each day, we are shown that the darkness is separated by the Light of Christ. Even each beautiful Sunset is a representation of the beautiful death of Christ. Perhaps I am just being fanciful . . . who knows.

Chapter 6 awaits . . . the "It is impossible . . . " Chapter. Whew.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes.

There must be an appearing of the thing before that thing affects creation as a whole.

Yet, we see how, in the OT, two different economies existed even as one (the Law) constrained the people. Without an economy greater than the Law David could not have eaten the showbread in the temple without being harmed. There was, for several people after God's heart, appearances of something greater in the earth beyond their rational knowledge. We see appearances of this divine reality all throughout scripture, from OT to NT.

Indeed figures for the time then present , of the reality that has now come so that thier faith also who came before can be on Christ like ours who came after

 

[Aaron56]

Indeed figures for the time then present , of the reality that has now come so that thier faith also who came before can be on Christ like ours who came after

Absolutely!

He is the Patterned Son whose life literally shows us the way.

 

[obertarti]

Hola Scholars! You know, I remember seeing the below Scripture many times, but have never taken the time to investigate it. Check it out . . .

Hebrews 5:8-9 NIV - "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him . . ."

I've looked at quite a few different translations and the idea is consistent . . . that Jesus was somehow changed to a point of perfection. In fact, now that I think of it, and I may be wrong here, but I think within the Davidic Covenant, there is a passage that states that if Jesus sins, he will be punished for His wrongdoing. 2 Sam 07:11-16

Guys . . . What thoughts come to mind?

New International Version
In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man's house

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Absolutely!

He is the Patterned Son whose life literally shows us the way.

indeed he is the true image and likeness of God

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬
‭‭
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him,( father ) and for him son )

and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we try to say Jesus is this or Jesus is that trying to define him as one part but it’s all him he is the father God the creator , he is the son of god made flesh God manifest as a man , he is the holy spirit

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our God became everything we lacked ourselves our God our sacrifice of atonement the high priest who made the sacrifice our intercessor and advocate with God our good shepherd our bread of life ….everything the old covenant defines as part of the covenant is accomplished by Christ he even became a man subject to the covenant himself from the man to the priest to the mediator to the prophet to the lord god himself Jesus is all of God manifest in one individual

 

[PaulThomson]

Hola Scholars! You know, I remember seeing the below Scripture many times, but have never taken the time to investigate it. Check it out . . .

Hebrews 5:8-9 NIV - "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him . . ."

I've looked at quite a few different translations and the idea is consistent . . . that Jesus was somehow changed to a point of perfection. In fact, now that I think of it, and I may be wrong here, but I think within the Davidic Covenant, there is a passage that states that if Jesus sins, he will be punished for His wrongdoing. 2 Sam 07:11-16

Guys . . . What thoughts come to mind?

1 Peter Tells us that faith in God must be developed through experiences into a robust agape love that bears fruit.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These undergirding characteristics of godly love needed to be practised flawlessly over time by Jesus to evidence His integrity before God..

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This requires wisdom.

It's at the very beginning:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

This was a covenant with God the Father and God the Son. Although Adam was created, he did not continue on according to the rules of the covenant.

This extended to Abraham:

"For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself..."

This was an agreement among God. Abraham received the promises of the agreement. AS I've said before, this is like a child receiving the benefits of a husband and wife entering into a loving marriage.

Later, we see that the payment for this covenant was made before the earth was made:

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Son paid the price for the covenant before the earth was made. And, because God is just, He obligated Himself to meet the requirements of the covenant. The requirements of the covenant was this:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

Very, very interesting. I suppose I don't quite have such a level of wisdom. To me, and I mean no offense, I'm not sure that based upon those verses I could comfortably teach another person such a doctrine. And, admittedly so, perhaps this is because I haven't recognized this Covenant in the Bible. There is such a thing as implied contracts, but how that concept applies to undisclosed Covenants, I'm not sure.

Have you been able to identify a reason for not referring to this Covenant as an actual covenant? Paul did teach, in fact, that the Plan of God has a been a Mystery since the beginning, only revealed during his day. So . . . my mind is open to consider any idea.

Thank you much.