Jesus Was Made Perfect?

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes or no, was Christ tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin?

I would say no. But before anyone goes wild, I think that this is a matter of semantics. I personally have never been tempted with raping a little boy. Are you suggested that Jesus was? So, as we can see, there is clearly something going on with the principle.

Anyway, I believe I get what you're saying. Many thanks.

 

[Aaron56]

Very, very interesting. I suppose I don't quite have such a level of wisdom. To me, and I mean no offense, I'm not sure that based upon those verses I could comfortably teach another person such a doctrine. And, admittedly so, perhaps this is because I haven't recognized this Covenant in the Bible. There is such a thing as implied contracts, but how that concept applies to undisclosed Covenants, I'm not sure.

Have you been able to identify a reason for not referring to this Covenant as an actual covenant? Paul did teach, in fact, that the Plan of God has a been a Mystery since the beginning, only revealed during his day. So . . . my mind is open to consider any idea.

Thank you much.

The conditions of the first covenant, between God and God, were met when the Lamb was slain before the world was made. Because the price was paid for the redemption of man before man was created, there was no issue creating Adam knowing he would sin.

When God swears to God there is no chance what was spoken will not be ratified. In this way it is different than a covenant that includes man. God swearing to God is truth and what is spoken will always be established.

We see this language at the beginning of creation when the Holy Spirit, hovering over the face of the waters, receives direction from Christ, through Whom all things were made: "Let there be..." instead of simply "Light". Christ, as the Word of God, speaks and the Spirit fills the void with what was spoken.

Jesus explained this synergy while on the earth.

"..when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine."

Here, the Spirit submits to the Word of God and only delivers what He is given. Furthermore, the source of all things is the Father. However, the Father has given all things to the Son. So we see this perfect synergy at work within God and, when what God speaks is brought into creation, creation must accommodate the thing spoken. This may be more accurately called "glory" because, unlike a covenant, the assurance of its conception lies within heart of One who establishes all Truth.

 

[John146]

I would say no. But before anyone goes wild, I think that this is a matter of semantics. I personally have never been tempted with raping a little boy. Are you suggested that Jesus was? So, as we can see, there is clearly something going on with the principle.

Anyway, I believe I get what you're saying. Many thanks.

The word "like" indicates the temptations that Christ faced was like all that we face, not the exact same. He was tempted in the flesh like as we are. He was tempted by the devil, like as we are. etc...

 

[studier]

Hola Scholars! You know, I remember seeing the below Scripture many times, but have never taken the time to investigate it. Check it out . . .

Hebrews 5:8-9 NIV - "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him . . ."

I've looked at quite a few different translations and the idea is consistent . . . that Jesus was somehow changed to a point of perfection. In fact, now that I think of it, and I may be wrong here, but I think within the Davidic Covenant, there is a passage that states that if Jesus sins, he will be punished for His wrongdoing. 2 Sam 07:11-16

Guys . . . What thoughts come to mind?

Here's briefly how I've tracked "perfect" through the Text using the Greek it's being translated from:

• Beginning in Hebrews:
  • {God's] Son was heard [by our Father] because of His godly fear 5:7
  • God's Son learned obedience from what He suffered 5:8 (think of the cross - "nevertheless Father, Your will be done")
  • God's Son after He was perfected, became the cause/source/reason for Salvation for all who obey Him 5:9
    • The verbs here show this sequence:
      • Jesus learned obedience
      • Jesus became perfected
      • Jesus became the source of Salvation for those who obey Him
    • Because I see the Jesus learning obedience as ultimately the cross, I see "perfect" here primarily as the resurrection.
      • To see if there is a second witness for this (so to speak), I see this in Philippians:
        • Above all things Paul desires to gain Christ and be found in Christ with the righteousness from God based upon faith Phil3:8-9
        • Paul's goal in this is to know Christ & the power of Christ's resurrection & the sharing of Christ's sufferings by conforming to Christ's death (note the correlation to the cross) Phil3:10
          • If somehow Paul might arrive at the resurrection from the dead Phil3:11
        • Then Paul parallels the arriving at the resurrection to being perfected in Phil3:12 and says he presses onward to lay hold of what Christ laid hold of him for.
          • So, the reason Jesus Christ - the Savior of men who obey Him (Heb5:9) - laid hold of such men is to perfect them = to resurrect them.
        • Now Paul will proceed to explain more of this advance to perfection for Christians = arriving at the resurrection:
          • Paul has not reached this goal - perfection/resurrection - yet so he forgets all things that are past and strive forward to what is ahead Phil3:13
          • Paul calls this the pressing toward the goal - perfection/resurrection - for the prize of the upward call in Christ Jesus Phil3:14
          • In Phil3:15 Paul includes "mature" Christians in this pursuit and commands them to have the same mindset he has in pursuing this goal - perfection/resurrection/the prize of the upward call in Christ Jesus.
            • Interestingly here, "mature" is the from the same word that is translated "perfect"
              • So, in essence Paul is commanding the perfect [Christians] to above all else pursue "perfection".
                • So, what does Paul mean? Back to Hebrews5:
                  • Continuing in the context of Heb5 and the perfection/resurrection of Jesus Christ, the writer now chides Christians for their lack of advance in the Faith - he says they all should be teachers by now but they have come to need milk and not solid food Heb5:12
                  • They are infants - milk drinkers - unskilled in the Word of Righteousness Heb5:13
                  • In contrast, solid food belongs to the "mature" - same Greek word = the "perfect" - described as those whose faculties have become well-exercised (Greek "gymnazo") in judging both good & bad [context = according to the Word of Righteous]
                  • Christians are then commanded to leave the elementaries (the basics per Heb6:1-2) and move on to "perfection" (same Greek word) Heb6:1
                  • Then a sobering warning = This we will do IF GOD PERMITS. In other words you better take this seriously.
                • And with this in mind back to Philippians 3:
                  • Paul says those who don't have this mindset are "enemies of the cross of Christ" Phil3:17-19.
                  • Then Paul instructs that we are citizens of Heaven awaiting Jesus Christ our Savior - who will transform our bodies to be like His (perfection/resurrection).

There is so much here to be understood and obedient to in Faith in Spirit.

There is perfection for the perfected - completion for the completed - Perfection I & Perfection II.

There is also the warning about not pursuing this and there is being labeled as enemies of Christ's Cross - enemies of the ultimate reason Jesus lived, died, was buried, was resurrected. God is perfecting His children as He did their first-born brother (Rom8:29) and Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith. Obedience, Godly Fear, Maturity/Perfection I, Resurrection/Perfection II - vs. Enemies of why Jesus died.

Let us (Apostolic command) move on to Perfection (I & ultimately II) and this we will do if God permits.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

remember Hebrews is quite often quoting from the Old Testament scriptures

Yes. I have cataloged each OT reference, but only. Next step: To enter into my database each time Old Testament is referenced in the NT, but from OT notes.

The conditions of the first covenant, between God and God, were met when the Lamb was slain before the world was made. Because the price was paid for the redemption of man before man was created, there was no issue creating Adam knowing he would sin.

When God swears to God there is no chance what was spoken will not be ratified. In this way it is different than a covenant that includes man. God swearing to God is truth and what is spoken will always be established.

We see this language at the beginning of creation when the Holy Spirit, hovering over the face of the waters, receives direction from Christ, through Whom all things were made: "Let there be..." instead of simply "Light". Christ, as the Word of God, speaks and the Spirit fills the void with what was spoken.

Jesus explained this synergy while on the earth.

"..when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine."

Here, the Spirit submits to the Word of God and only delivers what He is given. Furthermore, the source of all things is the Father. However, the Father has given all things to the Son. So we see this perfect synergy at work within God and, when what God speaks is brought into creation, creation must accommodate the thing spoken. This may be more accurately called "glory" because, unlike a covenant, the assurance of its conception lies within heart of One who establishes all Truth.

Thank you so much for your time and energy. Unfortunately, the idea doesn't resonate within me. Perhaps this will reach my heart in the future.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The word "like" indicates the temptations that Christ faced was like all that we face, not the exact same. He was tempted in the flesh like as we are. He was tempted by the devil, like as we are. etc...

Yeah . . . hmmm. I don't think that when Satan tempted Jesus, that Messiah actually considered them.

Jesus was tempted by the temptor, but Jesus was not tempting the idea of turning on God. Job was tempted to turn on God by his wife. But, if Job didn't consider the temptation by his wife, a mere man, then Jesus wouldn't consider the temptation of Satan.

But, I could be wrong. I've been down this discussion before and no one ever changes their minds.

 

[John146]

Yeah . . . hmmm. I don't think that when Satan tempted Jesus, that Messiah actually considered them.

Jesus was tempted by the temptor, but Jesus was not tempting the idea of turning on God. Job was tempted to turn on God by his wife. But, if Job didn't consider the temptation by his wife, a mere man, then Jesus wouldn't consider the temptation of Satan.

But, I could be wrong. I've been down this discussion before and no one ever changes their minds.

I'm standing on what saith the scripture. Jesus was tempted in all points "like" as we are tempted, and yet without sin. Was he not tempted to give to turn against God when Satan asked him to bow down to him?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Here's briefly how I've tracked "perfect" through the Text using the Greek it's being translated from:

• Beginning in Hebrews:
  • {God's] Son was heard [by our Father] because of His godly fear 5:7
  • God's Son learned obedience from what He suffered 5:8 (think of the cross - "nevertheless Father, Your will be done")
  • God's Son after He was perfected, became the cause/source/reason for Salvation for all who obey Him 5:9
    • The verbs here show this sequence:
      • Jesus learned obedience
      • Jesus became perfected
      • Jesus became the source of Salvation for those who obey Him
    • Because I see the Jesus learning obedience as ultimately the cross, I see "perfect" here primarily as the resurrection.
      • To see if there is a second witness for this (so to speak), I see this in Philippians:
        • Above all things Paul desires to gain Christ and be found in Christ with the righteousness from God based upon faith Phil3:8-9
        • Paul's goal in this is to know Christ & the power of Christ's resurrection & the sharing of Christ's sufferings by conforming to Christ's death (note the correlation to the cross) Phil3:10
          • If somehow Paul might arrive at the resurrection from the dead Phil3:11
        • Then Paul parallels the arriving at the resurrection to being perfected in Phil3:12 and says he presses onward to lay hold of what Christ laid hold of him for.
          • So, the reason Jesus Christ - the Savior of men who obey Him (Heb5:9) - laid hold of such men is to perfect them = to resurrect them.
        • Now Paul will proceed to explain more of this advance to perfection for Christians = arriving at the resurrection:
          • Paul has not reached this goal - perfection/resurrection - yet so he forgets all things that are past and strive forward to what is ahead Phil3:13
          • Paul calls this the pressing toward the goal - perfection/resurrection - for the prize of the upward call in Christ Jesus Phil3:14
          • In Phil3:15 Paul includes "mature" Christians in this pursuit and commands them to have the same mindset he has in pursuing this goal - perfection/resurrection/the prize of the upward call in Christ Jesus.
            • Interestingly here, "mature" is the from the same word that is translated "perfect"
              • So, in essence Paul is commanding the perfect [Christians] to above all else pursue "perfection".
                • So, what does Paul mean? Back to Hebrews5:
                  • Continuing in the context of Heb5 and the perfection/resurrection of Jesus Christ, the writer now chides Christians for their lack of advance in the Faith - he says they all should be teachers by now but they have come to need milk and not solid food Heb5:12
                  • They are infants - milk drinkers - unskilled in the Word of Righteousness Heb5:13
                  • In contrast, solid food belongs to the "mature" - same Greek word = the "perfect" - described as those whose faculties have become well-exercised (Greek "gymnazo") in judging both good & bad [context = according to the Word of Righteous]
                  • Christians are then commanded to leave the elementaries (the basics per Heb6:1-2) and move on to "perfection" (same Greek word) Heb6:1
                  • Then a sobering warning = This we will do IF GOD PERMITS. In other words you better take this seriously.
                • And with this in mind back to Philippians 3:
                  • Paul says those who don't have this mindset are "enemies of the cross of Christ" Phil3:17-19.
                  • Then Paul instructs that we are citizens of Heaven awaiting Jesus Christ our Savior - who will transform our bodies to be like His (perfection/resurrection).

There is so much here to be understood and obedient to in Faith in Spirit.

There is perfection for the perfected - completion for the completed - Perfection I & Perfection II.

There is also the warning about not pursuing this and there is being labeled as enemies of Christ's Cross - enemies of the ultimate reason Jesus lived, died, was buried, was resurrected. God is perfecting His children as He did their first-born brother (Rom8:29) and Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith. Obedience, Godly Fear, Maturity/Perfection I, Resurrection/Perfection II - vs. Enemies of why Jesus died.

Let us (Apostolic command) move on to Perfection (I & ultimately II) and this we will do if God permits.

My goodness. I don't have the time to read all the references, but I am confident in your approach, and view, of what is taking place regarding this interesting concept.

I am curious. Your outline above is outstanding: Did you have this outline pre-saved? How are you keeping track of your Biblical ideas, etc?

Many thanks!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I'm standing on what saith the scripture. Jesus was tempted in all points "like" as we are tempted, and yet without sin. Was he not tempted to give to turn against God when Satan asked him to bow down to him?

Sure, he was tempted. Did Jesus consider bowing to Satan and abandoning His Father and Deity status?

 

[John146]

Sure, he was tempted. Did Jesus consider bowing to Satan and abandoning His Father and Deity status?

Why does that matter? The question at hand is, was Jesus tempted in all points "like" we are tempted, yet without sin? The answer is yes.

 

[studier]

My goodness. I don't have the time to read all the references, but I am confident in your approach, and view, of what is taking place regarding this interesting concept.

I am curious. Your outline above is outstanding: Did you have this outline pre-saved? How are you keeping track of your Biblical ideas, etc?

Many thanks!

Thank you for the reply.

I've learned to understand these things. I wrote it from scratch - as they say, "off the top of my head". At this point I may keep some notes, but if I go back to review what I understand, I typically just start from scratch again, translate and retranslate over and over again to double-check myself as deeply as necessary. I used to teach so I may well have some transcripts of such lessons likely in more detail.

I outline as a system of thinking. That outline was simply a paraphrase to hit the points. If I'm studying something, I translate from Greek and use grammatical diagrams and Lexicons and do a lot of work through Scripture to let Scripture define itself - let God show me how He uses words. Then I outline clause by clause to work to understand the points being made.

Even with all this work, we can be left saying, 'I can see what this is saying, but what does it mean?' It's all ultimately by the Spirit of God. Any errors are mine.

 

[Aaron56]

Yes. I have cataloged each OT reference, but only. Next step: To enter into my database each time Old Testament is referenced in the NT, but from OT notes.


Thank you so much for your time and energy. Unfortunately, the idea doesn't resonate within me. Perhaps this will reach my heart in the future.

Sounds like a worthy endeavor.

Blessings

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah . . . hmmm. I don't think that when Satan tempted Jesus, that Messiah actually considered them.

Jesus was tempted by the temptor, but Jesus was not tempting the idea of turning on God. Job was tempted to turn on God by his wife. But, if Job didn't consider the temptation by his wife, a mere man, then Jesus wouldn't consider the temptation of Satan.

But, I could be wrong. I've been down this discussion before and no one ever changes their minds.

Do you think it’s significant that it says specifically he was tempted in every way as we are yet was without sin ?

to face temptations of the flesh doesn’t make one unclean it’s when one accepts and follows the temptation. Jesus struggled because he felt the infirmity of our flesh the flesh is what’s tempted.

you can see his striggles at times for instance when he’s praying in gethsemene he was distressed and even asking for it to be taken away from him the suffering he was going to face yet even facing those feelings of our fleshly state and fear , he says “ let not my will but thine be done “

jesus partook of humanities plight experienced what we do when we’re tempted only Jesus never sinned. It wasn’t just mechanical or not really tempting him he was actually tempted by his flesh but he walked in the spirit and perfect obedience to God

He doesn’t ask man to do tubing he hasn’t done himself because Jesus faced temptations and overcame , so can we by his spirit in us

at he first line here is important too

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;

but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[studier]

My goodness. I don't have the time to read all the references, but I am confident in your approach, and view, of what is taking place regarding this interesting concept.

I am curious. Your outline above is outstanding: Did you have this outline pre-saved? How are you keeping track of your Biblical ideas, etc?

Many thanks!

Another thought for you. Grasp the highlights - the 2 perfections (completions/goals) and then just sit and read Heb5 through the first part of Heb6 - then read Phil3. It's all there. Forget the sinless perfection arguments against the word "perfection". It's not talking about sinless perfection (other verses tell us Jesus never sinned). It's talking about being completed, completing God's plan, completing a phase of growth, reaching goal(s).

The mindset against all the nonsense arguments is something like: Please don't tell me I can't be perfect. God commands me to be perfect and to strive for perfection. Jesus died so I could become perfect. Now would you like to discuss what God means by the word "perfect"?

 

[studier]

Yes. I have cataloged each OT reference, but only. Next step: To enter into my database each time Old Testament is referenced in the NT, but from OT notes.

Have you seen this? Graphic

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus was made perfect because of His experiences? Hmmm....I am unable to see that principle in the Bible anywhere.

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest ( it’s about his humanity his time as a man ) in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, ( because he experienced temptation )

he is able to succour them that are tempted.”( he’s able to strengthen us to overcome it )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Why does that matter? The question at hand is, was Jesus tempted in all points "like" we are tempted, yet without sin? The answer is yes.

Alright.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Sounds like a worthy endeavor.

Blessings

Sorry about that. That's another one of those lame messages that were never intended to be sent. You think you erase it . . . somehow it later gets posted. Programming glitch. Anyway, it was an incomplete thought . . . never sent.

So sorry.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I wrote it from scratch - as they say, "off the top of my head".

Shut up more loudly! That's pretty amazing. And, this is all a great example of the necessity of the Body of Christ, utilizing each of us for our own skills and abilities.

If I'm studying something, I translate from Greek and use grammatical diagrams and Lexicons and do a lot of work through Scripture to let Scripture define itself

All that I am capable of doing is the latter of the two above. You seem like the kind of person I need for help. If you could start all over again, what free resources would you use to figure out how to use the lexicons, etc? I'll probably end up taking classes somewhere, but I'd like to get a jump start so that I don't get left behind.

Thank you so much for being here.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Do you think it’s significant that it says specifically he was tempted in every way as we are yet was without sin ?

Yes.

flesh is what’s tempted

Mmmmm . . . I don't think human flesh temps. Spiritual Flesh, yes.