Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

Rufus
Are the New Covenant promises of God in these two central OT passages (Jer 31 and Ezek 36) bilateral or unilateral? Conditional or unconditional?

Bilateral. The text does not say whether they are conditional or not.

Which logically means unilateral/unconditional. God is sovereignly decreeing what he will do under the terms of the covenant. There are no conditions nor any record of Israel or anyone else agreeing to obey the terms of NC, which differs greatly from the OC since there are plenty of "IF"'s stipulated throughout the covenant plus Israel agreed multiple time to abide by its terms.

Rufus:
Secondly, what were the conditions under which God loved (chose) Jacob and hated (rejected) Esau in Rom 9?

Esau the patriarch eventually submitted to God's election of Esau to serve the younger Jacob, and God blessed that Esau. Esau's descendants departed from their patriarch's godly submission and sought to destroy Jacob's descendants. Those were the conditions under which God declared 800 years later through Malachi, that he loved (would preserve) Jacob, despite Jacob's rebellion, and had hated (had destroyed) Esau for His rebellion.

God blessed Esau temporally but he was excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant, which means he was not a child of promise, according to Paul (Rom 91-15), whereas Jacob was. Furthermore, God rejected Easu from participating in the Abrahamic Covenant, whereas God elected Jacob to participate in eternity before they did anything good or bad (vv.10-13).

Rufus:
And lastly, why can't the biblical doctrine of Unconditional Election be referring solely to the absolute and total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners to teach us that there is no good thing inherent in any sinner that would warrant God's attraction to him?

Because the doctrine of Unconditional Election is not biblical. There is the light of God in every man that attracts God to all men as potential saints and children of God, if they are willing to stop distrusting God and to begin trusting Him. Also the doctrine of the total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners is not biblical.

Of course it is. See Romans 8 and 9 for starters. Also, the natural condition of all unregenerate sinners is darkness (Eph 5:8). God delivers his elect from the darkness and brings then into the kingdom of light (Col 1:13). And he shines his light into the hearts of his elect to give his chosen ones "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2Cor 4:6). And Jesus taught that sinners do not come to the light because they LOVE the darkness their deeds are evil and they HATE the light (Jn 3:19-20).

Your high view of God-hating, dead sinners is totally unjustified.

 

[Niki7]

Why can't you believe Jesus?

why do you create these kinds of false dilemas? I am sure that not one other person thinks he does not believe Jesus. I am also sure that you know better than to create a false accusation like that.

perhaps the questions should be asked of you: 'why can't you stick to the op instead of trying so hard to make things personal?'

 

[Niki7]

I pay attention to words: "Some have no choice but to study for their very survival and God allows it..."

Your words clearly convey the idea that this kind of experience or situation is an inferior option to others. And God even "allows" this inferior option. But all throughout scripture, in a sundry of ways, God's people are exhorted and even commanded to study and meditate on the Word. What better way is there to become a learned disciple of the Lord and to grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord?

Perhaps then, pay a little more attention to your own words.

There was nothing stupid about my question. You just were called out on the way you post. You appear to have a hard time just being able to respond without some kind of snark.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Bilateral. The text does not say whether they are conditional or not.

Which logically means unilateral/unconditional. God is sovereignly decreeing what he will do under the terms of the covenant. There are no conditions nor any record of Israel or anyone else agreeing to obey the terms of NC, which differs greatly from the OC since there are plenty of "IF"'s stipulated throughout the covenant plus Israel agreed multiple time to abide by its terms.

No that is not the logical meaning. If the text does not indicate whether a covenant is conditional or not, it is not logical to infer it must be unconditional.

PaulThomson said:
Esau the patriarch eventually submitted to God's election of Esau to serve the younger Jacob, and God blessed that Esau. Esau's descendants departed from their patriarch's godly submission and sought to destroy Jacob's descendants. Those were the conditions under which God declared 800 years later through Malachi, that he loved (would preserve) Jacob, despite Jacob's rebellion, and had hated (had destroyed) Esau for His rebellion.

God blessed Esau temporally but he was excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant, which means he was not a child of promise, according to Paul (Rom 91-15), whereas Jacob was. Furthermore, God rejected Easu from participating in the Abrahamic Covenant, whereas God elected Jacob to participate in eternity before they did anything good or bad (vv.10-13).

The Abrahamic covenant was that a man's faith is reckoned as righteousness, and that faith was expressed through circumcising one's male household. (Gen. 17:10-14). For Abraham that included circumcising Ishmael (Gen. 25) and all his household males (Gen. 17:27) For Isaac that included circumcising both Esau and Jacob on the eighth day. Ishmael and Esau were not excluded from justification by faith. Anyone could be justified by faith in the old testament ("The just shall live by his faith"), or the new testament. You are mindlessly overlaying calvinism onto scriptures that are not calvinist in nature.

PaulThomson said:
Because the doctrine of Unconditional Election is not biblical. There is the light of God in every man that attracts God to all men as potential saints and children of God, if they are willing to stop distrusting God and to begin trusting Him. Also the doctrine of the total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners is not biblical.

Of course it is. See Romans 8 and 9 for starters. Also, the natural condition of all unregenerate sinners is darkness (Eph 5:8). God delivers his elect from the darkness and brings then into the kingdom of light (Col 1:13). And he shines his light into the hearts of his elect to give his chosen ones "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2Cor 4:6). And Jesus taught that sinners do not come to the light because they LOVE the darkness their deeds are evil and they HATE the light (Jn 3:19-20).

Your high view of God-hating, dead sinners is totally unjustified.

I'm not going to bother addressing your tangled argument here at this time. We can focus on your first two errors first.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Okay...let's start with the one: The one's life was preserved or not?

But I think it would behoove us to stick with the reality of what the passage is teaching. The parable portion of the passage of Mat 18 does speak to only 1 lost critter (vv. 12-13) but the larger context (v.14), in which Jesus implicitly likens his Father to the shepherd, and which "the little ones who believe in me [Christ]" (v. 6) are parallel to the 100 sheep, does not. How did you miss these verses? This being the case, then, how can not this passage be teaching the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints since those "little ones" who believe in Christ have Jesus' Father for a Shepherd who is not willing that any of any of them perish (be lost)? I think it's a wee bit improbable that the Father would limit his infinite love, grace, mercy and compassion for his elect sheep by purposing in eternity to rescue, preserve and save only one of the lost "little ones" if it ever strayed from the flock.

P.S. Sorry for the delay in responding but had a long day as an outpatient in a hospital surgery room.

I did not miss any of the verses but merely mentioned what the verses said about only 1 was lost. Viewing this from a bigger picture there's no doubt if someone gets off track that God comes after that person. But it doesn't always mean they return. I know of several people who God used mightily and they lost their way and never returned. Most of the big name preachers on television were small fry and sincere good men of God when they began preaching. And many of them have created their own path and way of thinking opposite of God. Those people cannot see their errors even though God sends people their way to warn them. They were truly saved and now lost and most doubtfully will ever return back.

 

[Rufus]

why do you create these kinds of false dilemas? I am sure that not one other person thinks he does not believe Jesus. I am also sure that you know better than to create a false accusation like that.

perhaps the questions should be asked of you: 'why can't you stick to the op instead of trying so hard to make things personal?'

Hey, it was Mr. Shiloh who claimed he "believes" Jesus, but when the rubber meets the road with passages that don't play nicely with his heretical presuppositions then he starts his song and dance routine. I mean...just look at that brilliant, insightful 6 short liners or so "exposition" he gave yesterday of Mat 18:1-14. conveniently omitting two verses that are not kind to his pet doctrine.

At the end of the day, the Shiloh's of Christendom find it much easier to believe in Jesus rather than believing him. And, yes, there is a difference.

 

[Niki7]

So blame him for your rude behavior...which you have also dispensed in my direction.

Your response is just what I was trying to point out to you. No worries. If God depises what someone says to you as much as you seem to, I am sure they will be dealt with harshly.

I think the problem is actually one of disagreement...which goes on all the time over the forum. Not everyone thinks that is a valid reason to attack the person rather than discuss the op or the post.

I see you doing things you say others are doing......and we all do that from time to time, but consistent actions that insult and berate are not going to help and certainly not going to cause people to 'listen' better. Like shouting. If someone shouts at me, I am done. Same thing in the forum, if someone becomes consistently rude, lies, tries to start a fight, I put them on ignore.

Your choice of how you respond. Everyone has that choice. One thing that I have said a number of times in this forum, Jesus never said we will be known by our doctrine....it was actually something about love. Jesus saves......whether or not someone has all their Bible 'stuff' down pat, that will never save them.

I doubt people who are familiar with the Calvin type beliefs and do not choose to trust in them, will suddenly decide they are going to believe them anyway.

 

[Rufus]

I did not miss any of the verses but merely mentioned what the verses said about only 1 was lost. Viewing this from a bigger picture there's no doubt if someone gets off track that God comes after that person. But it doesn't always mean they return. I know of several people who God used mightily and they lost their way and never returned. Most of the big name preachers on television were small fry and sincere good men of God when they began preaching. And many of them have created their own path and way of thinking opposite of God. Those people cannot see their errors even though God sends people their way to warn them. They were truly saved and now lost and most doubtfully will ever return back.

So, those "several people" who strayed off the reservation and never returned frustrated God's will and purpose, even though scripture says it's not possible?. I guess we can't take Jesus' teaching of that Mat 18 passage to the bank then, can we? We have to trust and rely on anecdotal extra-biblical stories and let those form our doctrine? Is that how you "believe Jesus"?

And how do you know they were "truly saved"? You like to play God, too, don't you.? Do you read the hearts of men better or as well as He does? Or have you never read:

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'?
NIV

I guess you think their faith was genuine and not spurious?

Or what about this passage:

Luke 13:24-30
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able . 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' 26 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' 27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."
ESV

I guess these were true blue disciples, heh? And they just lost their way? Such a Shepherd God is. And what about Jesus' wild and crazy and boastful claim that he would not lose any sheep that his Father gave him? Not one! At least David knew how to rescue and preserve his sheep from certain death by two wild beasts! Funny how the sons of men can do things better than God and even do things that He can't do!

Or what about the Parable of the Four Soils that symbolize 4 kinds of hearts? I suppose all the soils were also the real deal believers, yes?

Luke 8:4-15
4 While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."

When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

"'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'

11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
NIV

If you're curious on how those in the last verse came by their "noble and good heart", give me a shout. Of course, if you're content with Jesus contradicting himself with something else he said at another time about the state of men's hearts, then of course just remain silent.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So, those "several people" who strayed off the reservation and never returned frustrated God's will and purpose, even though scripture says it's not possible?. I guess we can't take Jesus' teaching of that Mat 18 passage to the bank then, can we? We have to trust and rely on anecdotal extra-biblical stories and let those form our doctrine? Is that how you "believe Jesus"?

And how do you know they were "truly saved"? You like to play God, too, don't you.? Do you read the hearts of men better or as well as He does? Or have you never read:

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'?
NIV

I guess you think their faith was genuine and not spurious?

Or what about this passage:

Luke 13:24-30
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able . 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' 26 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' 27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."
ESV

I guess these were true blue disciples, heh? And they just lost their way? Such a Shepherd God is. And what about Jesus' wild and crazy and boastful claim that he would not lose any sheep that his Father gave him? Not one! At least David knew how to rescue and preserve his sheep from certain death by two wild beasts! Funny how the sons of men can do things better than God and even do things that He can't do!

Or what about the Parable of the Four Soils that symbolize 4 kinds of hearts? I suppose all the soils were also the real deal believers, yes?

Luke 8:4-15
4 While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."

When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

"'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'

11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
NIV

If you're curious on how those in the last verse came by their "noble and good heart", give me a shout. Of course, if you're content with Jesus contradicting himself with something else he said at another time about the state of men's hearts, then of course just remain silent.

There you go again acting like what we do can effect who God is.
Unbelievable that you make us have so much power that our denial actually reflects upon God.

 

[Rufus]

So blame him for your rude behavior...which you have also dispensed in my direction.

Your response is just what I was trying to point out to you. No worries. If God depises what someone says to you as much as you seem to, I am sure they will be dealt with harshly.

I think the problem is actually one of disagreement...which goes on all the time over the forum. Not everyone thinks that is a valid reason to attack the person rather than discuss the op or the post.

I see you doing things you say others are doing......and we all do that from time to time, but consistent actions that insult and berate are not going to help and certainly not going to cause people to 'listen' better. Like shouting. If someone shouts at me, I am done. Same thing in the forum, if someone becomes consistently rude, lies, tries to start a fight, I put them on ignore.

Your choice of how you respond. Everyone has that choice. One thing that I have said a number of times in this forum, Jesus never said we will be known by our doctrine....it was actually something about love. Jesus saves......whether or not someone has all their Bible 'stuff' down pat, that will never save them.

I doubt people who are familiar with the Calvin type beliefs and do not choose to trust in them, will suddenly decide they are going to believe them anyway.

It's called low-hanging fruit. But more importantly, I would not be doing him or anyone else here a favor by not pointing out their contradictions or hypocrisy, would I? People who really don't take passages like Jer 17:9 or Isa 1:4-6 to heart. The last person in the world who would know he's self-deceived is the one who is!

And why should I care about Calvin? I know I should be far more concerned about what the Author of Scripture has taught the sons of men through Jesus, the apostles and the prophets. Just because you and others here aren't fond of Calvin does not necessarily mean that the Five Doctrines of Grace he taught aren't biblically sound.

 

[Rufus]

There you go again acting like what we do can effect who God is.
Unbelievable that you make us have so much power that our denial actually reflects upon God.

Or you can't really effect who God is, but you do try your best! But the "only" thing you can do is malign and blaspheme him.

 

[Rufus]

I did not miss any of the verses but merely mentioned what the verses said about only 1 was lost. Viewing this from a bigger picture there's no doubt if someone gets off track that God comes after that person. But it doesn't always mean they return. I know of several people who God used mightily and they lost their way and never returned. Most of the big name preachers on television were small fry and sincere good men of God when they began preaching. And many of them have created their own path and way of thinking opposite of God. Those people cannot see their errors even though God sends people their way to warn them. They were truly saved and now lost and most doubtfully will ever return back.

Effectively reducing God to a potential savior! He wins some, he loses some. But the shepherd in the parable actually preserved the life of his one straying sheep. So he gets to bat a 1.00, while the wanna-be savior himself only knows what he bats. I'm glad he's your savior and not mine.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Or you can't really effect who God is, but you do try your best! But the "only" thing you can do is malign and blaspheme him.

I am just saying that YOU are the one claiming it reflects upon who God is if things don't go according to your doctrine.
God would still be God if all humans rejected Him.
It would not blemish who God is at all.
Only humans believe that humans can effect the viewpoint of God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Effectively reducing God to a potential savior! He wins some, he loses some. But the shepherd in the parable actually preserved the life of his one straying sheep. So he gets to bat a 1.00, while the wanna-be savior himself only knows what he bats. I'm glad he's your savior and not mine.

He doesn't need you for Him to win at all.
He is GOD!
He's probably laughing at those who think rejection reflects poorly upon Him.

 

[Rufus]

He doesn't need you for Him to win at all.
He is GOD!
He's probably laughing at those who think rejection reflects poorly upon Him.

Oh, not only does "laugh" at those who mock him, demean him, diminish him, deride him, slander him, blaspheme him, etc. but he always has the last laugh.

 

[Rufus]

I am just saying that YOU are the one claiming it reflects upon who God is if things don't go according to your doctrine.

God would still be God if all humans rejected Him.

It would not blemish who God is at all.

Only humans believe that humans can effect the viewpoint of God.

And only humans believe that God is weak and impotent because he would dare not tread on sovereign, autonomous wills of the sons of men lest he be thought of as a tyrannical, oppressive dictator.

But thanks be the Lord God Almighty that he is 100% trustworthy and and can and should always be believed. And I do believe with all my heart, mind and soul that no mere mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or goals.

And my God of the NT is also my God of the Old! He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Ezek 34:11-16, 31
11 "'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice...31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
NIV

Now, there's my God! Powerful, Truthful, Confident is that Shepherd! He is someone I can also trust and be supremely confident in his promises. I count at least twelve "I wills in that passage. No doubt too much sovereignty for you, though, right? Too much power? Too much confidence?

Ezek 34:23-24
23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.
NIV

Might wanna cross reference that passage with John 10. This is the same David who promised he would lose none of his Father's sheep.

Mic 5:2, 4
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
NIV

It is comforting to this soul to know that my Good Shepherd will never fail me; for I, too, am a frail, weak, vulnerable, helpless sheep who could stray at any time and need to be rescued.

2 Tim 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless ,
he will remain faithful,
for he CANNOT disown himself.
NIV

Imagine that! An all-powerful God with limitations.

 

[Niki7]

It's called low-hanging fruit. But more importantly, I would not be doing him or anyone else here a favor by not pointing out their contradictions or hypocrisy, would I? People who really don't take passages like Jer 17:9 or Isa 1:4-6 to heart. The last person in the world who would know he's self-deceived is the one who is!

And why should I care about Calvin? I know I should be far more concerned about what the Author of Scripture has taught the sons of men through Jesus, the apostles and the prophets. Just because you and others here aren't fond of Calvin does not necessarily mean that the Five Doctrines of Grace he taught aren't biblically sound.

etc

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
Bilateral. The text does not say whether they are conditional or not.

Rufus said:
Which logically means unilateral/unconditional. God is sovereignly decreeing what he will do under the terms of the covenant. There are no conditions nor any record of Israel or anyone else agreeing to obey the terms of NC, which differs greatly from the OC since there are plenty of "IF"'s stipulated throughout the covenant plus Israel agreed multiple time to abide by its terms.

PT reply:
No that is not the logical meaning. If the text does not indicate whether a covenant is conditional or not, it is not logical to infer it must be unconditional.

You might want to acquaint yourself with the logical fallacy known as an Argument From Silence. So, yes, to assume that silence means bilateral/conditional would be quite illogical. There's no sound reason to not take the passages I referred to earlier at face value. As stated earlier, if you want to see a conditional covenant, look no further than to the Old. There's an abundance of evidience.

I'll get back to the rest of your tangled argument later or tomorrow.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And only humans believe that God is weak and impotent because he would dare not tread on sovereign, autonomous wills of the sons of men lest he be thought of as a tyrannical, oppressive dictator.

But thanks be the Lord God Almighty that he is 100% trustworthy and and can and should always be believed. And I do believe with all my heart, mind and soul that no mere mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or goals.

And my God of the NT is also my God of the Old! He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Ezek 34:11-16, 31
11 "'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice...31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
NIV

Now, there's my God! Powerful, Truthful, Confident is that Shepherd! He is someone I can also trust and be supremely confident in his promises. I count at least twelve "I wills in that passage. No doubt too much sovereignty for you, though, right? Too much power? Too much confidence?

Ezek 34:23-24
23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.
NIV

Might wanna cross reference that passage with John 10. This is the same David who promised he would lose none of his Father's sheep.

Mic 5:2, 4
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
NIV

It is comforting to this soul to know that my Good Shepherd will never fail me; for I, too, am a frail, weak, vulnerable, helpless sheep who could stray at any time and need to be rescued.

2 Tim 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless ,
he will remain faithful,
for he CANNOT disown himself.
NIV

Imagine that! An all-powerful God with limitations.

Which would be YOU who thinks such things.

I doubt God thinks like you in any way.
If God was as concerned with your false doctrine then all humans would be saved to fulfill your insignificant understanding.
God could make all humans be saved.
But since only a few are saved is why you need such a baloney doctrine.
Your idealisms are weak and pathetic, unlike Who and What God is.

 

[Rufus]

Which would be YOU who thinks such things.

I doubt God thinks like you in any way.
If God was as concerned with your false doctrine then all humans would be saved to fulfill your insignificant understanding.
God could make all humans be saved.
But since only a few are saved is why you need such a baloney doctrine.
Your idealisms are weak and pathetic, unlike Who and What God is.

As do I. I think like he does.

Nonsense! Your conclusion does not logically follow the Doctrines of Grace. God will have compassion on whom he will compassion and he will have mercy on whom he will. It does not depend on the man who desires or the man who runs. Just like it didn't with Isaac and Ishmael and with Jacob and Esau.

You don't have the first clue who and what God is. You think God thinks like you and acts like you. You have made him into your image. A very dangerous thing to do. I believe it's called idolatry.