Revelation 18 - The Great Babylon

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#1
Well friendly scholars,

Is America the great Babylon? Are we simply waiting for the destruction of this Nation?

Revelation 18:2-3 NLT - "He gave a mighty shout: "Babylon is fallen--that great city is fallen! She has become a home for demons. She is a hideout for every foul spirit, a hideout for every foul vulture and every foul and dreadful animal. For all the nations have fallen because of the wine of her passionate immorality. The kings of the world have committed adultery with her. Because of her desires for extravagant luxury, the merchants of the world have grown rich."
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,121
113
#3
I don't think the US is Great Babylon - the Bible describes it as a city, not a nation, but we definitely won't be a world power at that time. I think the one world government won't let us be destroyed entirely because we have a lot of resources they want. However, I'm pretty sure they'll get rid of a lot of Christians here.


🐛
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#4
I don't think the US is Great Babylon - the Bible describes it as a city, not a nation, but we definitely won't be a world power at that time. I think the one world government won't let us be destroyed entirely because we have a lot of resources they want. However, I'm pretty sure they'll get rid of a lot of Christians here.


🐛
Hello 2TC,

Indeed. I was thinking that Babylon may be more than a city because of the symbolism. For example, mountains are to be leveled, yet mountains are still referenced as existing (during the tribulation, the people will beg the rocks of the mountains to fall upon them to kill them from the wrath of God).

I thought I had found a reference to Israel being equated to Babylon, but I haven't been able to find it (in Revelation).
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,121
113
#5
Hello 2TC,

Indeed. I was thinking that Babylon may be more than a city because of the symbolism. For example, mountains are to be leveled, yet mountains are still referenced as existing (during the tribulation, the people will beg the rocks of the mountains to fall upon them to kill them from the wrath of God).

I thought I had found a reference to Israel being equated to Babylon, but I haven't been able to find it (in Revelation).

I've read other people's conclusions that Jerusalem is Babylon. *Shrug* Maybe? I don't know yet.

There's also Mystery Babylon to investigate. From what I've read, that is suppose to be symbolic for a one-world religion that will at first be supported by the antichrist and the false prophet to make themselves appealing to people, but will destroy her later on. The Abrahamic Family House in Abu Dhabi is something I've been considering might be Mystery Babylon. It houses a church, a synagogue and a mosque that is meant to embrace all religions.


🐛
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#6
I've read other people's conclusions that Jerusalem is Babylon. *Shrug* Maybe? I don't know yet.

There's also Mystery Babylon to investigate. From what I've read, that is suppose to be symbolic for a one-world religion that will at first be supported by the antichrist and the false prophet to make themselves appealing to people, but will destroy her later on. The Abrahamic Family House in Abu Dhabi is something I've been considering might be Mystery Babylon. It houses a church, a synagogue and a mosque that is meant to embrace all religions.


🐛
This Revelation stuff is hard, which is why I have left it to those who have been given the heart and mind to understand these things. I have not been given that mind.

I JUST started Chapter 17 and found that maybe America is the Great Prostitute (NLT)?

Revelation 17:1-2 NLT - "One of the seven angels who had poured out the seven bowls came over and spoke to me. "Come with me," he said, "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters. The kings of the world have committed adultery with her, and the people who belong to this world have been made drunk by the wine of her immorality."

Perhaps this is a silly question, but could Babylon also be this Great Prostitute? I don't think so, as Babylon represents captivity, while the Prostitute has always been associated with the Blessed Jews.

Thanks for your patience. This is the most effort I've ever put into Understanding Revelation.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7
Oh man. My ignorance is shining through. I JUST found the below passage which states that Babylon, too, is considered a "Prostitute."

Revelation 17:5 NLT - "A mysterious name was written on her forehead: "Babylon the Great, Mother of All Prostitutes and Obscenities in the World."

:censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#9
That's what the evidence seems to be pointing to!

Ezekiel 16:3-43 NLT - 3 Give her this message from the Sovereign LORD: You are nothing but a Canaanite! Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 On the day you were born, no one cared about you. Your umbilical cord was not cut, and you were never washed, rubbed with salt, and wrapped in cloth. 5 No one had the slightest interest in you; no one pitied you or cared for you. On the day you were born, you were unwanted, dumped in a field and left to die. 6 "But I came by and saw you there, helplessly kicking about in your own blood. As you lay there, I said, 'Live!' 7 And I helped you to thrive like a plant in the field. You grew up and became a beautiful jewel. Your breasts became full, and your body hair grew, but you were still naked. 8 And when I passed by again, I saw that you were old enough for love. So I wrapped my cloak around you to cover your nakedness and declared my marriage vows. I made a covenant with you, says the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine. 9 "Then I bathed you and washed off your blood, and I rubbed fragrant oils into your skin. 10 I gave you expensive clothing of fine linen and silk, beautifully embroidered, and sandals made of fine goatskin leather. 11 I gave you lovely jewelry, bracelets, beautiful necklaces, 12 a ring for your nose, earrings for your ears, and a lovely crown for your head. 13 And so you were adorned with gold and silver. Your clothes were made of fine linen and were beautifully embroidered. You ate the finest foods--choice flour, honey, and olive oil--and became more beautiful than ever. You looked like a queen, and so you were! 14 Your fame soon spread throughout the world because of your beauty. I dressed you in my splendor and perfected your beauty, says the Sovereign LORD. 15 "But you thought your fame and beauty were your own. So you gave yourself as a prostitute to every man who came along. Your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16 You used the lovely things I gave you to make shrines for idols, where you played the prostitute. Unbelievable! How could such a thing ever happen? 17 You took the very jewels and gold and silver ornaments I had given you and made statues of men and worshiped them. This is adultery against me! 18 You used the beautifully embroidered clothes I gave you to dress your idols. Then you used my special oil and my incense to worship them. 19 Imagine it! You set before them as a sacrifice the choice flour, olive oil, and honey I had given you, says the Sovereign LORD. 20 "Then you took your sons and daughters--the children you had borne to me--and sacrificed them to your gods. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 Must you also slaughter my children by sacrificing them to idols? 22 In all your years of adultery and detestable sin, you have not once remembered the days long ago when you lay naked in a field, kicking about in your own blood. 23 "What sorrow awaits you, says the Sovereign LORD. In addition to all your other wickedness, 24 you built a pagan shrine and put altars to idols in every town square. 25 On every street corner you defiled your beauty, offering your body to every passerby in an endless stream of prostitution. 26 Then you added lustful Egypt to your lovers, provoking my anger with your increasing promiscuity. 27 That is why I struck you with my fist and reduced your boundaries. I handed you over to your enemies, the Philistines, and even they were shocked by your lewd conduct. 28 You have prostituted yourself with the Assyrians, too. It seems you can never find enough new lovers! And after your prostitution there, you still were not satisfied. 29 You added to your lovers by embracing Babylonia, the land of merchants, but you still weren't satisfied. 30 "What a sick heart you have, says the Sovereign LORD, to do such things as these, acting like a shameless prostitute. 31 You build your pagan shrines on every street corner and your altars to idols in every square. In fact, you have been worse than a prostitute, so eager for sin that you have not even demanded payment. 32 Yes, you are an adulterous wife who takes in strangers instead of her own husband. 33 Prostitutes charge for their services--but not you! You give gifts to your lovers, bribing them to come and have sex with you. 34 So you are the opposite of other prostitutes. You pay your lovers instead of their paying you! 35 "Therefore, you prostitute, listen to this message from the LORD! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you have poured out your lust and exposed yourself in prostitution to all your lovers, and because you have worshiped detestable idols, and because you have slaughtered your children as sacrifices to your gods, 37 this is what I am going to do. I will gather together all your allies--the lovers with whom you have sinned, both those you loved and those you hated--and I will strip you naked in front of them so they can stare at you. 38 I will punish you for your murder and adultery. I will cover you with blood in my jealous fury. 39 Then I will give you to these many nations who are your lovers, and they will destroy you. They will knock down your pagan shrines and the altars to your idols. They will strip you and take your beautiful jewels, leaving you stark naked. 40 They will band together in a mob to stone you and cut you up with swords. 41 They will burn your homes and punish you in front of many women. I will stop your prostitution and end your payments to your many lovers. 42 "Then at last my fury against you will be spent, and my jealous anger will subside. I will be calm and will not be angry with you anymore. 43 But first, because you have not remembered your youth but have angered me by doing all these evil things, I will fully repay you for all of your sins, says the Sovereign LORD. For you have added lewd acts to all your detestable sins.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#10
I don't think the US is Great Babylon - the Bible describes it as a city, not a nation, but we definitely won't be a world power at that time.
This is true. There is the city and then there is "Mystery Babylon" the religious system. They are connected but not identical. Mystery Babylon is a worldwide idolatrous religious system, which actually began in ancient Babylon and has continued throughout history. All false religions worshipping idols and false gods are a part of this. But somehow the church of Rome will take the lead in the future, since it did adapt and adopt much of Mystery Babylon. Also, the Antichrist and his idolatry and blasphemy will be a part of this.

The antidote to all this is Bible Christianity and the true Gospel of Christ. Revelation is there to warn people to repent and be converted. Also to tell churches in Christendom and individuals in them to repent and do what Christ says.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
113
#11
This Revelation stuff is hard, which is why I have left it to those who have been given the heart and mind to understand these things. I have not been given that mind.

I JUST started Chapter 17 and found that maybe America is the Great Prostitute (NLT)?

Revelation 17:1-2 NLT - "One of the seven angels who had poured out the seven bowls came over and spoke to me. "Come with me," he said, "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters. The kings of the world have committed adultery with her, and the people who belong to this world have been made drunk by the wine of her immorality."

Perhaps this is a silly question, but could Babylon also be this Great Prostitute? I don't think so, as Babylon represents captivity, while the Prostitute has always been associated with the Blessed Jews.

Thanks for your patience. This is the most effort I've ever put into Understanding Revelation.
If you read the old testament prophecies regarding Jerusalem and the house of Israel revelation actually makes alot of sense. I could show you what I mean but it requires alot of scripture quotes and that doesn't often go over well here. So instead I'm just suggesting that revelation can be understood through old testament prophecy on a really consistent basis particularly the prophets Ezekiel , zechariah , Daniel and also Jeremiah and of course Isaiah.

You can find the themes shown in revelation in the old testament prophets and it tells you what the vision and imagery means.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#12
I believe that the symbolic Babylon of the end times is a wicked one-world order.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
113
#13
That's what the evidence seems to be pointing to!

Ezekiel 16:3-43 NLT - 3 Give her this message from the Sovereign LORD: You are nothing but a Canaanite! Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 On the day you were born, no one cared about you. Your umbilical cord was not cut, and you were never washed, rubbed with salt, and wrapped in cloth. 5 No one had the slightest interest in you; no one pitied you or cared for you. On the day you were born, you were unwanted, dumped in a field and left to die. 6 "But I came by and saw you there, helplessly kicking about in your own blood. As you lay there, I said, 'Live!' 7 And I helped you to thrive like a plant in the field. You grew up and became a beautiful jewel. Your breasts became full, and your body hair grew, but you were still naked. 8 And when I passed by again, I saw that you were old enough for love. So I wrapped my cloak around you to cover your nakedness and declared my marriage vows. I made a covenant with you, says the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine. 9 "Then I bathed you and washed off your blood, and I rubbed fragrant oils into your skin. 10 I gave you expensive clothing of fine linen and silk, beautifully embroidered, and sandals made of fine goatskin leather. 11 I gave you lovely jewelry, bracelets, beautiful necklaces, 12 a ring for your nose, earrings for your ears, and a lovely crown for your head. 13 And so you were adorned with gold and silver. Your clothes were made of fine linen and were beautifully embroidered. You ate the finest foods--choice flour, honey, and olive oil--and became more beautiful than ever. You looked like a queen, and so you were! 14 Your fame soon spread throughout the world because of your beauty. I dressed you in my splendor and perfected your beauty, says the Sovereign LORD. 15 "But you thought your fame and beauty were your own. So you gave yourself as a prostitute to every man who came along. Your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16 You used the lovely things I gave you to make shrines for idols, where you played the prostitute. Unbelievable! How could such a thing ever happen? 17 You took the very jewels and gold and silver ornaments I had given you and made statues of men and worshiped them. This is adultery against me! 18 You used the beautifully embroidered clothes I gave you to dress your idols. Then you used my special oil and my incense to worship them. 19 Imagine it! You set before them as a sacrifice the choice flour, olive oil, and honey I had given you, says the Sovereign LORD. 20 "Then you took your sons and daughters--the children you had borne to me--and sacrificed them to your gods. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 Must you also slaughter my children by sacrificing them to idols? 22 In all your years of adultery and detestable sin, you have not once remembered the days long ago when you lay naked in a field, kicking about in your own blood. 23 "What sorrow awaits you, says the Sovereign LORD. In addition to all your other wickedness, 24 you built a pagan shrine and put altars to idols in every town square. 25 On every street corner you defiled your beauty, offering your body to every passerby in an endless stream of prostitution. 26 Then you added lustful Egypt to your lovers, provoking my anger with your increasing promiscuity. 27 That is why I struck you with my fist and reduced your boundaries. I handed you over to your enemies, the Philistines, and even they were shocked by your lewd conduct. 28 You have prostituted yourself with the Assyrians, too. It seems you can never find enough new lovers! And after your prostitution there, you still were not satisfied. 29 You added to your lovers by embracing Babylonia, the land of merchants, but you still weren't satisfied. 30 "What a sick heart you have, says the Sovereign LORD, to do such things as these, acting like a shameless prostitute. 31 You build your pagan shrines on every street corner and your altars to idols in every square. In fact, you have been worse than a prostitute, so eager for sin that you have not even demanded payment. 32 Yes, you are an adulterous wife who takes in strangers instead of her own husband. 33 Prostitutes charge for their services--but not you! You give gifts to your lovers, bribing them to come and have sex with you. 34 So you are the opposite of other prostitutes. You pay your lovers instead of their paying you! 35 "Therefore, you prostitute, listen to this message from the LORD! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you have poured out your lust and exposed yourself in prostitution to all your lovers, and because you have worshiped detestable idols, and because you have slaughtered your children as sacrifices to your gods, 37 this is what I am going to do. I will gather together all your allies--the lovers with whom you have sinned, both those you loved and those you hated--and I will strip you naked in front of them so they can stare at you. 38 I will punish you for your murder and adultery. I will cover you with blood in my jealous fury. 39 Then I will give you to these many nations who are your lovers, and they will destroy you. They will knock down your pagan shrines and the altars to your idols. They will strip you and take your beautiful jewels, leaving you stark naked. 40 They will band together in a mob to stone you and cut you up with swords. 41 They will burn your homes and punish you in front of many women. I will stop your prostitution and end your payments to your many lovers. 42 "Then at last my fury against you will be spent, and my jealous anger will subside. I will be calm and will not be angry with you anymore. 43 But first, because you have not remembered your youth but have angered me by doing all these evil things, I will fully repay you for all of your sins, says the Sovereign LORD. For you have added lewd acts to all your detestable sins.”

‭Ezekiel 16:2 KJV‬
[2] Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Read also chapter 23

‭Ezekiel 23:4-5, 11, 22, 25-26, 28-30 KJV‬
[4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. [5] And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
[11] And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
[22] Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
[25] And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire. [26] They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.
[28] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated: [29] and they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms. [30] I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#14
If you read the old testament prophecies regarding Jerusalem and the house of Israel revelation actually makes alot of sense. I could show you what I mean but it requires alot of scripture quotes and that doesn't often go over well here. So instead I'm just suggesting that revelation can be understood through old testament prophecy on a really consistent basis particularly the prophets Ezekiel , zechariah , Daniel and also Jeremiah and of course Isaiah.

You can find the themes shown in revelation in the old testament prophets and it tells you what the vision and imagery means.
Indeed, indeed. It takes a lot of work to piece together this thing called Eschatology. I'm thrilled that within a few days, I can move on. I will have completed this year long writing project. Burnt . . . . . . out.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#15
I believe that the symbolic Babylon of the end times is a wicked one-world order.
It would make sense. Babylon almost always relates to captivity, and those partaking in that world order would certainly be under the captivity of Satan, held to do his evil will.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#16
I'm beginning the final four chapters of Revelation, and your post came to mind. I was thinking to myself, do the Jews of 2024 (those who have knowledge of the Bible, specifically, Revelation), believe that John is referencing the Nation of Israel (when referring to Babylon)?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,327
6,649
113
62
#17
I'm beginning the final four chapters of Revelation, and your post came to mind. I was thinking to myself, do the Jews of 2024 (those who have knowledge of the Bible, specifically, Revelation), believe that John is referencing the Nation of Israel (when referring to Babylon)?
Doubtful. Israel has become largely a secular nation. But it would require revelation to understand anyways, and even Christians disagree vastly on the book of Revelation.
To me, the key to understanding Revelation begins with its audience and purpose. Once you get this, the book unfolds easily.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#18
Doubtful. Israel has become largely a secular nation. But it would require revelation to understand anyways, and even Christians disagree vastly on the book of Revelation.
To me, the key to understanding Revelation begins with its audience and purpose. Once you get this, the book unfolds easily.
Please share! Where there is Purpose, there is a Plan, and when God's Plan is involved, it's about Power. Who is the audience?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,327
6,649
113
62
#19
Please share! Where there is Purpose, there is a Plan, and when God's Plan is involved, it's about Power. Who is the audience?
The audience is 1st century Christians.
The purpose is to give comfort to them as the judgment of Israel is at hand.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#20
The audience is 1st century Christians.
The purpose is to give comfort to them as the judgment of Israel is at hand.
I see. So, Revelation is not also for us today? Are you saying that the Judgment was in AD 70 and not in our distant future, a Judgment yet to come?

Sorry for the naive questions. I appreciate your short and concise answers, by the way. Perfect!