Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

Rufus · May 9, 2024

The curse of the Law that came thousands of years after Creation is not the three-fold curse God decreed upon all creation after the Fall. This latter curse is still with mankind today and won't be abolished until Christ returns.

Rev 22:3
3 No longer will there be any curse . The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
NIV

Also, see Rom 8:18-25 whereby the whole creation waits in eager expectation for the resurrection of the saints so that it will finally be freed from its bondage to decay and from the frustration to which God subjected it.

Israel's punishment by God has no bearing on the topic since all mankind -- Jews and Gentiles alike -- comes into this world in a state of spiritual DEATH.

Eph 2:1-5
2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even WHEN we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.
NIV

Jews and Gentiles alike, BY NATURE, are objects of God's WRATH! Both came into this world DEAD in their sins. Both lived their lives gratifying the uncontrollable cravings of our sinful nature, blindly following its desires and thoughts. And then the text goes on to say that WHEN elect Jews and Gentiles were in their utterly HELPLESS state (after all, who can raise themselves from the dead!?), God raised them from the dead. Not after they believed. Not after they repented. But when they were still dead, "God made us alive with Christ". Then and only then were the elect empowered to believe the Gospel. Only AFTER they were liberated from the bondage of the sinful nature and recreated New!

Also, we must remember that while in that utterly helpless state, Paul reminds us in Romans that those who are controlled by the"flesh" (sinful nature) CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8).

So, you need to explain to us how any DEAD person had any spiritual ability to please God by coming to faith and repentance prior to being raised from the dead! Prior to being born again! You need to explain how any of God's elect were able on their own to free themselves from their controlling sin nature in order to to please God by their faith and repentance.

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
NEITHER CAN you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

And since none of us have the power to change our skin, nor does the leopard have any power to change its spots, the the only inescapable conclusion is that none us CAN do good; therefore, Paul was right when he said that that those who are controlled by their sinful nature cannot please God. Can God be pleased by anything less than good?

Rufus · May 9, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

Except when you don't!

John 5:22
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

Jesus is exerting his sovereignty in this passage! Your heresy should have him saying instead that the Son gives life to whoever asks for it. He gives life to whoever desires it. The Son gives life to whoever wants it. The Son gives life to whoever prays for it, etc. But he didn't say any of these things, did he? Jesus was big on Election.

FollowerofShiloh · May 9, 2024

Rufus said:

The curse of the Law that came thousands of years after Creation is not the three-fold curse God decreed upon all creation after the Fall. This latter curse is still with mankind today and won't be abolished until Christ returns.

Rev 22:3
3 No longer will there be any curse . The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
NIV

Also, see Rom 8:18-25 whereby the whole creation waits in eager expectation for the resurrection of the saints so that it will finally be freed from its bondage to decay and from the frustration to which God subjected it.

Israel's punishment by God has no bearing on the topic since all mankind -- Jews and Gentiles alike -- comes into this world in a state of spiritual DEATH.

Eph 2:1-5
2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even WHEN we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.
NIV

Jews and Gentiles alike, BY NATURE, are objects of God's WRATH! Both came into this world DEAD in their sins. Both lived their lives gratifying the uncontrollable cravings of our sinful nature, blindly following its desires and thoughts. And then the text goes on to say that WHEN elect Jews and Gentiles were in their utterly HELPLESS state (after all, who can raise themselves from the dead!?), God raised them from the dead. Not after they believed. Not after they repented. But when they were still dead, "God made us alive with Christ". Then and only then were the elect empowered to believe the Gospel. Only AFTER they were liberated from the bondage of the sinful nature and recreated New!

Also, we must remember that while in that utterly helpless state, Paul reminds us in Romans that those who are controlled by the"flesh" (sinful nature) CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8).

So, you need to explain to us how any DEAD person had any spiritual ability to please God by coming to faith and repentance prior to being raised from the dead! Prior to being born again! You need to explain how any of God's elect were able on their own to free themselves from their controlling sin nature in order to to please God by their faith and repentance.

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
NEITHER CAN you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

And since none of us have the power to change our skin, nor does the leopard have any power to change its spots, the the only inescapable conclusion is that none us CAN do good; therefore, Paul was right when he said that that those who are controlled by their sinful nature cannot please God. Can God be pleased by anything less than good?

It's not the curse of the Law that made them blind and death.

Where do you get this baloney or make it up at from?

FollowerofShiloh · May 9, 2024

Rufus said:

How do you know He isn't pleased to give life to everyone? It's just a blanket statement he is pleased to give life.

brightfame52 · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

You cant believe can you ?

The curse is on them because Christ didnt die for them. See everyone Christ died for, has by His death, been redeemed from the curse of the Law having been made a curse for them Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So nobody Christ died for[jew or gentile] is ever under the curse, its impossible !

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

And so is the FACT of the post-Fall curse upon all mankind and is still in effect. And that curse predates any judicial punishment laid upon the OC people of God.

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

The text is qualified! The passage does not say that he is pleased to go life to everyone. If he was, then everyone would be saved. Universal Salvation again!

Here are how several translations read:

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will
ESV

John 5:21
21 For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens [them], thus the Son also quickens whom he will:
Darby

John 5:21
21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
NASB

The phrase "to who he will" or "to whom he wishes" qualifies (limits) the extent of the giving. Otherwise, as just stated, Jesus could have just easily said "I give life to everyone". But he didn't because it was never God's plan to save the entire human race. Jesus obviously will never give life (raise from the dead) the goats of this world, will he? But he gives life to his sheep!

Moreover, why is the focus on the giver of the life in the passage, rather than the recipients? After all, in NR theology eternal life is like the gold ring on the merry--go-round: It's freely available to everyone who wants it. All a person has to do is reach out and grab it! All one has to do is decide to take it!

homwardbound · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

if I may, God through Son Chose them. All that God calls hear, and then choose to believe God or not. Too simple. therefore does God call us all or not? God has called and leaves the final choice upon to us the people, for us to choose
God by Son seeks us all out to see to choose to believe God or not. that is the call to us all, as I see this in Thanksgiving and praise to God above it all

Matthew 11:28-30

King James Version

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Believe God, receiver from God and see new from God. Therefore continue in being willing to learn what is true over error in this world too

homwardbound · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

Father and Son's will are the same all the time, Thank you Father and Son, especially thanks for you the Holy Spirit to lead us, those in willingness to be led by you Father, thank you

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, Isay unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise

John146 · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

Those who are not saved will take part in the second death...aka, will die twice.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God has not appointed any man to die twice, but only once.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man dies twice, it was not appointed by God. The lost man would end up going to a place never meant for him to go.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

Tell me something I already don't know! I know how DEATH entered this world and has affected each and every person ever born into it.

Rom 5:15-17
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
NIV

FollowerofShiloh · May 10, 2024

brightfame52 said:

And had it not been that God wanted the Gentiles to be a part of the Family, He would not have blinded and deafened the Jews who would have heard Jesus and accepted him.

FollowerofShiloh · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

I never claimed we aren't held to the fall of Adam.

Rufus · May 10, 2024

John146 said:

What I bolded in red is not true.

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NIV

There are at least three takeaways from this passage:

1. Not all the Gentiles who "heard" believed; only those who were appointed to life, making this a qualified statement.

2. Since only those appointed for eternal life actually believed, then the logical inference is that those who didn't or don't believe were not or ever appointed to live (cp. 1Pet 2:8)

3. The eternal divine decree (appointment) precedes faith. The text does not say that those who believed were appointed for life (cp. Jn 11:26).

The Heb 9:27 passage, therefore, speaks specifically only to physical death in its context and does not preclude the possibility that God could or has in fact predestined many to eternal condemnation by leaving them in their fallen state as "pottery...for common use...prepared for destruction" (Rom 9:21-24).

FollowerofShiloh · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

The 2nd century text says to οὓς or who, not whom....θέλει or wants
21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, so also the Son gives life to who wants.
All these TR Texts are always off from the original.

οὕτως
thus

καὶ
also

ὁ
the

Υἱὸς
Son

οὓς
who

θέλει ,
wants

ζωοποιεῖ .
life

What does οὓς mean in Greek?
English Translation

who

What does θέλει (thélei) mean in Greek?
English Translation

wants

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

But you did ignore that curse, which is still in effect; wheres the curse of the Law (under the Mosaic Covenant) is no more for any believer, since Christ himself suffered this latter curse on behalf of his elect.

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

It means what it says. The Son gives life to WHOM HE WILLS! Period. This does not and cannot mean that he gives eternal life to each and every person on the planet, since that would mean he literally saves all men in the distributive sense. But that is what you're trying to tell us, isn't it? Universal Salvation! After all, you did say earlier that the passage could mean he gives life to everyone!

P.S. Here's how the text reads in my interlinear:

John 5:21

21 <START GREEK>w%sper <START GREEK>ga\r <START GREEK>o( <START GREEK>path\r <START GREEK>e)gei/rei <START GREEK>tou\$ <START GREEK>nekrou\$ <START GREEK>kai\ <START GREEK>zw|opoiei=, <START GREEK> <START GREEK>ou%tw$ <START GREEK>kai\
<END GREEK>CSP <END GREEK>CCX <END GREEK>AMSN <END GREEK>NMSN <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK>AMPA <END GREEK>JMPAX <END GREEK>CCK <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK> <END GREEK>BX <END GREEK>BX
as For the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; so even
5618 1063 3588 3962 1453 3588 3498 2532 2227 9999 3779 2532
Hoósper gár ho Pateér egeírei toús nekroús kaí zooopoieí hoútoos kaí

<START GREEK>o( <START GREEK>ui(o\$ <START GREEK>ou^$ <START GREEK>qe/lei <START GREEK>zw|opoiei=.
<END GREEK>AMSN <END GREEK>NMSN <END GREEK>ORRMPA <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK>V3 SPAI
the Son whom he will. quickeneth
3588 5207 3739 2309 2227
ho Huiós hoús thélei zooopoieí

In other words, "the Son whom he will quickeneth".

FollowerofShiloh · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

Anyone who is saved and believes in Jesus still sins.

FollowerofShiloh · May 10, 2024

Rufus said:

It means what it says. The Son gives life to WHOM HE WILLS! Period. This does not and cannot mean that he gives eternal life to each and every person on the planet, since that would mean he literally saves all men in the distributive sense. But that is what you're trying to tell us, isn't it? Universal Salvation! After all, you did say earlier that the passage could mean he gives life to everyone!

P.S. Here's how the text reads in my interlinear:

John 5:21

21 <START GREEK>w%sper <START GREEK>ga\r <START GREEK>o( <START GREEK>path\r <START GREEK>e)gei/rei <START GREEK>tou\$ <START GREEK>nekrou\$ <START GREEK>kai\ <START GREEK>zw|opoiei=, <START GREEK> <START GREEK>ou%tw$ <START GREEK>kai\
<END GREEK>CSP <END GREEK>CCX <END GREEK>AMSN <END GREEK>NMSN <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK>AMPA <END GREEK>JMPAX <END GREEK>CCK <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK> <END GREEK>BX <END GREEK>BX
as For the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; so even
5618 1063 3588 3962 1453 3588 3498 2532 2227 9999 3779 2532
Hoósper gár ho Pateér egeírei toús nekroús kaí zooopoieí hoútoos kaí

<START GREEK>o( <START GREEK>ui(o\$ <START GREEK>ou^$ <START GREEK>qe/lei <START GREEK>zw|opoiei=.
<END GREEK>AMSN <END GREEK>NMSN <END GREEK>ORRMPA <END GREEK>V3 SPAI <END GREEK>V3 SPAI
the Son whom he will. quickeneth
3588 5207 3739 2309 2227
ho Huiós hoús thélei zooopoieí

In other words, "the Son whom he will quickeneth".

No, it means the TR is trying to make it mean something which is not how John wrote it at all.

Rufus · May 10, 2024

FollowerofShiloh said:

Really? And remarkable revelation by you.

So...is there a point somewhere deeply hidden in you comment?

Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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