Revelation 18 - The Great Babylon

[Cameron143]

I see. So, Revelation is not also for us today? Are you saying that the Judgment was in AD 70 and not in our distant future, a Judgment yet to come?

Sorry for the naive questions. I appreciate your short and concise answers, by the way. Perfect!

Yes and no. All scripture must first be understood in terms of its audience. The scripture was actually written to them. Once understood what it meant, we can make applications for us today.
There is a final judgment to come, but nearly the entire book is dealing with the end of the old covenant, the consequences of failing to keep the terms of the covenant, and introducing the new covenant and a continuance of the redemption plan of God.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes and no. All scripture must first be understood in terms of its audience. The scripture was actually written to them. Once understood what it meant, we can make applications for us today.
There is a final judgment to come, but nearly the entire book is dealing with the end of the old covenant, the consequences of failing to keep the terms of the covenant, and introducing the new covenant and a continuance of the redemption plan of God.

Difficult. Whew. Well, how about this next one that I am strugging over:

Revelation 20:4-5 NLT - 4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"

Is verse 5 really saying that all of these things will happen in Revelation before the first resurrection of the dead? I was under the impression from 1 Thess that when Jesus returns, the dead will be caught up with him in the sky? I feel like an idiot if this isn't the case, for I've been waiting for the Lord to come down and out of the sky, believing confidently that I will be gathered.

 

[Cameron143]

Difficult. Whew. Well, how about this next one that I am strugging over:

Revelation 20:4-5 NLT - 4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"

Is verse 5 really saying that all of these things will happen in Revelation before the first resurrection of the dead? I was under the impression from 1 Thess that when Jesus returns, the dead will be caught up with him in the sky? I feel like an idiot if this isn't the case, for I've been waiting for the Lord to come down and out of the sky, believing confidently that I will be gathered.

What you have expressed is the prevailing view in our time. But to whom were all the verses concerning the catching away written to? You got it...1st century Christians. The 1st century rapture was the first resurrection. When Christ does return, time will be no more, all will be resurrected unto life or death, and the eternal estate will be ushered in.
You haven't and won't be left behind.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“

Difficult. Whew. Well, how about this next one that I am strugging over:

Revelation 20:4-5 NLT - 4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"

Is verse 5 really saying that all of these things will happen in Revelation before the first resurrection of the dead? I was under the impression from 1 Thess that when Jesus returns, the dead will be caught up with him in the sky? I feel like an idiot if this isn't the case, for I've been waiting for the Lord to come down and out of the sky, believing confidently that I will be gathered.

ever notice there are two testaments that promise a resurrection to the people it’s given to ?

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hundreds of years after that promise the messiahs first arrival on earth

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when he died and rose

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then also we’re promised this when the messiah returns to earth at the culmination of our covenant

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The thousand years isn’t literal and the riegn is already in heavens kingdom we’re waiting for his return to harvest the New Testament folks at the end of the world

The first resurrection was Jesus and the firstfruits were the ones who belong to him at his coming

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits;

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The firstfruits were the ot saints and also the early church all born under the ot covenant promises of resurrection who also endured the great tribulation when rome slaughtered them

were waiting for his return from heaven when he’ll raise up the dead again a second time

there’s a kingdom already in heaven where Christ is reigning with his saints and people the thousand years isn’t literal it’s a long measure of time no one but God can calculate

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The 1st century rapture was the first resurrection.

I don't know how I'm able to write this. You just blew my mind all over . . . everywhere.

What you are telling me is something I am now hearing for the first time. Holy Mother of Snail Skin.

Again, I love these short posts. Give me a couple more passages that we haven't already discussed that would point to this unbelievable event to take place. Is there a passage in the OT that points to this early Resurrection?

Wait a second . . . people WERE raised from the dead:
Matthew 27:51-53 NLT - 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people."

Is this what you're referring to?

 

[Cameron143]

I don't know how I'm able to write this. You just blew my mind all over . . . everywhere.

What you are telling me is something I am now hearing for the first time. Holy Mother of Snail Skin.

Again, I love these short posts. Give me a couple more passages that we haven't already discussed that would point to this unbelievable event to take place. Is there a passage in the OT that points to this early Resurrection?

Wait a second . . . people WERE raised from the dead:
Matthew 27:51-53 NLT - 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people."

Is this what you're referring to?

Yep.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The firstfruits were the ot saints and also the early church all born under the ot covenant promises of resurrection who also endured the great tribulation when rome slaughtered them

were waiting for his return from heaven when he’ll raise up the dead again a second time

Yes, yes, yes. This is starting to come together. But, I have to admit that I am a bit tripped out that I have missed the first Resurrection.

You see, this is a great example of the problem of the Christian church: How is it that a dude near 60 years old who has tens of thousands of hours of study, but doesn't know about the first Resurrection?

Every church in the World simply has got to have a class that teaches the actual Story of God. This story is more than just the Gospel of Christ, but the entire Story of God, from beginning to end, so that in by knowing this full story, we are better equipped to not only understand the Saving Plan of Christ, but confidently enter into the world and begin to share it conclusively.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yep.

Unbelievable.

 

[Cameron143]

Unbelievable.

Only because of what you've been taught.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, yes, yes. This is starting to come together. But, I have to admit that I am a bit tripped out that I have missed the first Resurrection.

You see, this is a great example of the problem of the Christian church: How is it that a dude near 60 years old who has tens of thousands of hours of study, but doesn't know about the first Resurrection?

Every church in the World simply has got to have a class that teaches the actual Story of God. This story is more than just the Gospel of Christ, but the entire Story of God, from beginning to end, so that in by knowing this full story, we are better equipped to not only understand the Saving Plan of Christ, but confidently enter into the world and begin to share it conclusively.

Well the thing is each denomination does sort of have thier special classes of teaching who God is to me that’s an issue and what causes two believers from different areas to be at odds so often

air wvwryone agreed on who the lord is and that his word is his word wvwryone would be studying the same doctrine and come to the same conclusions eventually

bit this happened

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course paul is referring to the truth of Christs word that people are being turned away from

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This of course hearkens back to Isaiah 42 he will bring forth judgement into truth the lawgiver messiah

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I look at the Bible a bit differently I see the ot and the epistles as two witnesses all pointing to Jesus and the gospel as the crown jewel of all scripture and the appearing of our God upon the earth in person so we can know him and believe

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you think about the Bible when do we start hearing about the father who loves us ? Where do we learn thkngs like this

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a now the Bible makes loose references tonus being his children but I’m saying where is this the doctrine that’s being taught to believers ?

“for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think all the Bible is trying to turn our hearts and minds directly to the gospel and that’s where salvstion is for us

please understand however I’m only saying what I believe it doesn’t make me right but it’s all I myself have is what I believe from the scripture

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Only because of what you've been taught.

Right. But more specifically, what I wasn't taught. Who knows . . . marching forward!

 

[Aaron56]

“And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

”City” is an interesting term. It’s the Greek word “polis” which means "a group of people". Physically, a city has a specific location. Also, one may know the character of a city by the way it transacts business.

Jesus referred to the saints as “a city on a hill”. Of course, this is not a city with a specific location. This is a collection of people with the character of Christ. The culture of this city is governed by Christ and she is known, in the world, by this culture.

God's kingdom is like this: it has no specific location or address but, rather, is know by the culture of its inhabitants. In fact, we are told to ignore those who say "Look! Here is the kingdom" or "Look! There is the kingdom". The kingdom of God is in our sphere of influence; in our midst.

So, we come to "the great city" referenced in Revelation 17. We first see her as the woman, robed in scarlet, "drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus". We are actually told of her character before we are told she is "a great city". This is a debauched woman juxtaposed against the Bride of Christ. And, where Christ is for the salvation of perfection of the saints, this wicked creature seeks the opposite: their destruction.

Jesus actually spoke about this creature when He addressed the culture and manner of the Pharisees and Sanhedrin in Matthew 23. They, meaning the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin, were guilty of spilling the blood of all those whom God sent.

"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city..."

Jesus then says this:

"..that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."

According to Jesus, they are guilty of the death of Abel.

He ends the chapter in this way:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

We might conclude: Well, he's obviously speaking about Jerusalem. But Jerusalem wasn't founded until 900 years after Abel was murdered. So, He cannot be speaking about a city with an address. He is speaking about the polis, the group of people whose character and culture is opposed to God and His people.

So, when we go forward to Revelation and consider the Harlot, Babylon the Great, the great city, who is "drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs for Jesus", including the blood of righteous Abel, we cannot conclude He is dealing with a city with a specific location. Neither Jerusalem nor Israel, herself, could have physically killed Abel. No. We are dealing with a system within the kingdom of Darkness, a polis known to the world by her slaughter and destruction of the saints of God; God's people from the beginning of time.

Now, we can certainly see how Israel or Jerusalem fits this description on many levels. But so does Washington D.C., Moscow, San Francisco, Rome, etc. And, since she stands directly opposed to the Bride of Christ whose ways magnify the Lord, the Harlot must be a religious system that opposes the people of God. When we see this we can see her fingerprints, or culture, all throughout the history of men. When men seek legitimacy or power or influence by fornicating with this woman of filth, they are doing the bidding of the Harlot, the great city, which is actually a religious system. She might have the trappings of the wife of Christ but her business is transactional: you do this for me and I'll do this for you. This is a woman who will not submit to a husband. Indeed, she has many husbands and she is is loyal to none of them.

Blessings

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well the thing is each denomination does sort of have thier special classes

Not in my area. Stepped in many buildings the inhabitants thought of as church, but it wasn't any church. The building was amazing, but the inhabitants . . . the women looked like strippers. No classes. Nothing going on. Pastors don't mention the Name Jesus from the Pulpit. It's all a show; churches trying to outdo the others as best they can. The big churches that put on christian rock concerts each morning, yes, where they hand out ear-plugs . . . that's what we have.

In other words, there's lots of opportunity where I live!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not in my area. Stepped in many buildings the inhabitants thought of as church, but it wasn't any church. The building was amazing, but the inhabitants . . . the women looked like strippers. No classes. Nothing going on. Pastors don't mention the Name Jesus from the Pulpit. It's all a show; churches trying to outdo the others as best they can. The big churches that put on christian rock concerts each morning, yes, where they hand out ear-plugs . . . that's what we have.

In other words, there's lots of opportunity where I live!

Yeah I think it’s like that everywhere . What I mean is denominations each teach their own details tbat disagree with other denominations seminaries ect

Bit totally understand what your saying . I know most here agree Jesus is the one to believe in which is a pretty solid foundation to begin with in my opinion they are right where they need to be but man just a couple false teachings that oppose his own and it really really affects our faith and becomes harder and harder to change later

Its a good thing our God is merciful and forebearing with us that he is longsuffering and patient as we stumble along tryomg to get our feet beneath us

 

[selahsays]

Difficult. Whew. Well, how about this next one that I am strugging over:

Revelation 20:4-5 NLT - 4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"

Is verse 5 really saying that all of these things will happen in Revelation before the first resurrection of the dead? I was under the impression from 1 Thess that when Jesus returns, the dead will be caught up with him in the sky? I feel like an idiot if this isn't the case, for I've been waiting for the Lord to come down and out of the sky, believing confidently that I will be gathered.

My understanding of the Scripture is that the First Resurrection happens when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. This happens at the seventh trump and initiates the 1,000-year Millennium.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

My understanding of the Scripture is that the First Resurrection happens when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. This happens at the seventh trump and initiates the 1,000-year Millennium.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Thank you for your leveling input. I really, really appreciate it. No doubt, I will need to take a closer look and make some sort of determination.

 

[selahsays]

Thank you for your leveling input. I really, really appreciate it. No doubt, I will need to take a closer look and make some sort of determination.

Yeah; I reckon we all do that, and I’m sure our Father appreciates it.

 

[selahsays]

… and one Day soon, He’ll gently explain everything to us.