Salvation is a Free Gift.

[rogerg]

Do you think then, that Israel will be saved some other way than by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ?

No, I don't think that as an earthly nation of Israel will be saved at all. I believe the Israel of God - those saved - have become
the true Israel.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

They come to Jesus by the faith given to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which, they come to believe in Him. They don't literally do something to come to Him. When they are given faith, they have come to Him because it is His faith that is imputed to them. It is called becoming saved/born again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 17:2 explains what you don't see in verse 6:37 - that God gave power over all flesh to Jesus, but only those
of the "all flesh", which God specifically chose and gave to Jesus, will He give eternal life to. No participation on their part necessary, nor possible, nor mentioned. According to those verses, and many other like verses, God and Jesus did/does it all - He simply bestows it upon those whom He saves. So, I think that it is you who is the worker of deception in that you would impose upon those to be saved a task for them to become saved, when no such task exists. According to your "person's part to come" comment, you would have them try to perform a work to complete their salvation, yet the requirement you would impose upon them in order to be saved, comes from Satan, not God. That is why God has told us that we are saved completely by His grace and not by our works or deeds, no matter how seemingly trivial they may be.

You can't have faith until you go some place to HEAR the Gospel preached.

To go some place to hear the Gospel preached is an effort made by your own doing.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Not dragged away with force as you said. Drawn with lovingkindness.

Were you forced?

forced
adjective
obtained or imposed by coercion

I guess it depends what you mean by forced? I was not consulted about becoming saved; neither was I given the option to reject it.
It was bestowed upon me through God's exceeding mercy and grace by Jesus Christ. Is that being forced?
That question always amazes me. It like being asked if you could, would you choose to reject living
in ultimate bliss far beyond our understanding with God for all eternity but choosing to say thanks but no thanks
I'll take whatever else is available, which would be hell itself. I'd have to be pretty picky to turn down that offer if I could.
Who would choose that?

 

[rogerg]

You can't have faith until you go some place to HEAR the Gospel preached.

To go some place to hear the Gospel preached is an effort made by your own doing.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Well, we could discuss that verse for hours. My interpretation of it is different from yours.

First, I believe that the "comes" or "cometh" in the KJV, is not actually in the verse. Anyway,
there are several possibilities. The one I think correct is the faith in view is Christ's faith, not ours,
and through the hearing (spiritual hearing) of word of God (part of the verse), is that those born again through the reading of scripture
come to an understanding of Christ's faith - an awareness that it brought salvation to fruition.
I've also heard another interpretation which I believe plausible, it is that we are given faith through the
fruit of the Spirit but grow into that faith through the reading of scripture.
One thing is for sure, the Bible cannot contradict itself, so, since it clearly says faith comes as the
fruit of the Spirit, I don't think that it would be possible to be from a source other than that -
so, any interpretation we may draw cannot contradict it.

 

[rogerg]

You can't have faith until you go some place to HEAR the Gospel preached.

To go some place to hear the Gospel preached is an effort made by your own doing.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Regarding verse 17, read my post to Magenta.
Faith, as is everything that accompanies salvation, comes as a gift from God.
Our faith comes from salvation; it does not give salvation; only God can give salvation

Did you read the verses I posted - that faith is imputed to us as a fruit of the Spirit. Those aren't my words

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Oops, sorry I confused you with Magenta - thought that post was to her. Please ignore that.

Tired and getting hard to concentrate. Better stop for now.

 

[Magenta]

I guess it depends what you mean by forced? I was not consulted about becoming saved; neither was I given the option to reject it.
It was bestowed upon me through God's exceeding mercy and grace by Jesus Christ. Is that being forced?
That question always amazes me. It like being asked if you could, would you choose to reject living
in ultimate bliss far beyond our understanding with God for all eternity but choosing to say thanks but no thanks
I'll take whatever else is available, which would be hell itself. I'd have to be pretty picky to turn down that offer if I could.
Who would choose that?

You are the one who claimed being drawn meant forcefully dragged off.

Are you admitting you were wrong?

 

[rogerg]

You are the one who claimed being drawn meant forcefully dragged off.

Are you admitting you were wrong?

No. That is what being dragged off is, if I understand your point correctly.

 

[Magenta]

No. That is what being dragged off is, if I understand your point correctly.

Then you contradict yourself.

 

[rogerg]

Then you contradict yourself.

I'm lost. Explain please.

 

[Magenta]

I'm lost. Explain please.

You say you weren't forced, but that God/Jesus drawing us means being forcefully dragged off.

PS ~ there are 29 instances of "lovingkindness" in the KJV.

 

[Magenta]

I have made @selahsays unhappy.

The problem is, she cannot admit she contradicts herself, and dislikes me pointing out to another
that they have contracted themself as well. Truly I would love to see you all become great apologists.
You cannot be a great apologist if you cannot present points without contradicting yourself.

God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Evmur]

John 12:31-32

His enemies are drawn for judgement ....

 

[Evmur]

They come to Jesus by the faith given to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which, they come to believe in Him. They don't literally do something to come to Him. When they are given faith, they have come to Him because it is His faith that is imputed to them. It is called becoming saved/born again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 17:2 explains what you don't see in verse 6:37 - that God gave power over all flesh to Jesus, but only those
of the "all flesh", which God specifically chose and gave to Jesus, will He give eternal life to. No participation on their part necessary, nor possible, nor mentioned. According to those verses, and many other like verses, God and Jesus did/does it all - He simply bestows it upon those whom He saves. So, I think that it is you who is the worker of deception in that you would impose upon those to be saved a task for them to become saved, when no such task exists. According to your "person's part to come" comment, you would have them try to perform a work to complete their salvation, yet the requirement you would impose upon them in order to be saved, comes from Satan, not God. That is why God has told us that we are saved completely by His grace and not by our works or deeds, no matter how seemingly trivial they may be.

God bless you.

The truth is Calvinism is as ointment poured forth, but there is a fly in the apothecary which giveth forth an evil odour. The fly is not election nor yet predestination for these are the precious things everywhere taught and brought to light in great measure by Monsieur Calvin.

The fly is double predestiny, it is not scripture it is nothing more than an assumption on the part of the good Monsieur.
The question was "if God has predestined and chosen [elect] some to be saved does it not therefore follow that all others are passed over?"

Calvin struggled with that, having been foremost in bringing the doctrines of predestiny and election to the front he had to find an answer. He had to conclude that to all logic and common understanding of language it must be so. God having predestined and chosen some must indeed have passed over all over.

It is only true if predestiny and election ever applied to salvation per se in the first place. It doesn't, it never did.

It applies to be God's chosen people in this world, to be His witnesses, to be a people conformed to the image of His dear Son, a people for the praise of His glorious grace. To be the church, His body, His bride. THAT'S what we are predestined and chosen for. To be a city set upon the hill, a light unto those who sit in darkness.

Others can [and WILL be saved] and we are chosen to be the means of their salvation through our witness. Predestiny and election is not to EXCLUDE folk but to INCLUDE folk.

THAT'S what Monsieur Calvin got wrong.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Are they? Are all men - all of them - drawn to Christ? You do know that to draw means to drag off, as-in force, right?

It's impossible to discuss the bible here

Do you think then, that Israel will be saved some other way than by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ?

I mean they did all witness the gospel beforehand they were just waiting for the resurrection a d life to come John chapter 11

 

[Pilgrimshope]

His enemies are drawn for judgement ....

Everyone ?

It is appointed to men once to die after this the judgement


‭Romans 14:10-12 KJV‬
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not dragged away with force as you said. Drawn with lovingkindness.

Were you forced?

forced
adjective
obtained or imposed by coercion

It's that everyone is called but only some respond Jesus suffered and died for us this should draw our hearts to him everything we talk about is found in the gospel

 

[Evmur]

Everyone ?

It is appointed to men once to die after this the judgement


‭Romans 14:10-12 KJV‬
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The greater crowds flocked to hear Him, we see that the same crowds were stirred up by the minority to condemn our Lord and cry for His death. But on the day of Pentecost they came flocking back to get saved.

I believe in megachurch.

 

[Evmur]

Do you think then, that Israel will be saved some other way than by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ?

they shall look upon Him whom they have PIERCED ... they will be saved through the cross.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The greater crowds flocked to hear Him, we see that the same crowds were stirred up by the minority to condemn our Lord and cry for His death. But on the day of Pentecost they came flocking back to get saved.

I believe in megachurch.

I have no clue what you said dear brother . Did you notice before Jesus died he's only preaching to Israel those he had made blind and deaf but said he would choose a tenth a remnant to spare ? And then he is saying that when he dies he would draw all men to himself ? Notice after he died the gospel was then sent to every creature for salvation .....

 

[homwardbound]

I cannot say where Judas' eternal condition is. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. I leave those who have crossed over in the hands of God.

Agreed, was just sharing what I get from a loving God, which God has been this to me, and have gone through many a troubles as well. I chose, chose as Job chose in the book of Job, to not deny God. And have gone through that test from evil to try to get me to deny God as Job went through too.Thanks, for the share in care and to leave that in God's hands, done
God is the one and only one righteous, I am not, nor want to build off of nothing else, but the willing death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, the way, the truth and new life in the risen life offered to turn to believe God Father and be new and learn from all mistakes afterwords willingly, remaining forgiven by God through Son, amazing grace