Salvation is a Free Gift.
- Thread starter MikeF
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Indeed I found that this really is a thing even to this day
“Seeing then that we have such hope, we ( apostles ) use great plainness of speech:
and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.”
2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
once the heart turns to Christ I imagine they would be like Paul an ardent Pharisee who rejected Jesus at first but when converted he began hearing the Old Testament for what it was the witness of Christ and the gospel
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
Matthew 11:13 KJV
“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead,
and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 26:22-23 KJV
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-48
“Seeing then that we have such hope, we ( apostles ) use great plainness of speech:
and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.”
2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
once the heart turns to Christ I imagine they would be like Paul an ardent Pharisee who rejected Jesus at first but when converted he began hearing the Old Testament for what it was the witness of Christ and the gospel
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
Matthew 11:13 KJV
“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead,
and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 26:22-23 KJV
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-48
-
1
- Show all
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
faith is not when we refuse to hear and believe his word it’s when we do hear and believe him that’s what creates faith . Repentance comes from believing the truth and not rejecting it it is a gift gos is trying to give to us but we keep rejecting his word about it rather than believing and having faith
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 KJV
Romans 10:17 KJV
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
faith is not when we refuse to hear and believe his word it’s when we do hear and believe him that’s what creates faith . Repentance comes from believing the truth and not rejecting it it is a gift gos is trying to give to us but we keep rejecting his word about it rather than believing and having faith
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 KJV
If we get down to where the pedal meets the metal or the rubber meets the road theology, 95% of Jews are much like those in Catholic/Episcopalian/Lutheran types of structure. They have a Rabbi/Priest. You go to Synagogue/Mass. But you do not bring a Bible. They have a printed presentation of when the Rabbi/Priest speaks and then the ones hearing reply in some chant. And they go home and never read the Bible/Tankh for themselves. They just put their Bible understanding completely into what the Rabbi/Priest tells them.
Where at least 50% of Christians READ and OWN a Bible. And they can go to Church and kind of know what verses mean.
So when talking to a Jew, in most scenarios, you're talking to a puppet without learned knowledge from their own personal study. They literally will tell you what the Rabbis told them. It's as if the Rabbis is the VOICE of God and his translation is of God.
So when you say to them "Read this."
It's like watching someone trying to learn a foreign language in less than 60 seconds.
Where at least 50% of Christians READ and OWN a Bible. And they can go to Church and kind of know what verses mean.
So when talking to a Jew, in most scenarios, you're talking to a puppet without learned knowledge from their own personal study. They literally will tell you what the Rabbis told them. It's as if the Rabbis is the VOICE of God and his translation is of God.
So when you say to them "Read this."
It's like watching someone trying to learn a foreign language in less than 60 seconds.
-
1
- Show all
Yes I hadn’t known tbat but makes sense after the responses I’ve have gotten over the years in discussions I’ve always found them wonderful and friendly and all this just doctrine seems like night and day from the gospel
i think it’s almost like mankind is always trying to have the control over the masses of mankind rather than letting God have the control over themselves
i think it’s almost like mankind is always trying to have the control over the masses of mankind rather than letting God have the control over themselves
Male Jews are still superior to women in 2024.
It's why no female leadership.
The wives and children are still property of the husband (by theory) because they adhere to the LAW.
Yes, divorce happens and women get out from underneath that torrential abuse.
But many submit to it, especially wives of Rabbis.
So the congregation adhere to Synagogue structural laws.
Rabbi's = Voice of God and non Rabbis are less than so submission is required.
It's why no female leadership.
The wives and children are still property of the husband (by theory) because they adhere to the LAW.
Yes, divorce happens and women get out from underneath that torrential abuse.
But many submit to it, especially wives of Rabbis.
So the congregation adhere to Synagogue structural laws.
Rabbi's = Voice of God and non Rabbis are less than so submission is required.
-
1
- Show all
Okay, I understand what you're saying, but to pretend God wasn't drawing them to His self the whole time is just silly. What do you say to the person who did think he was doing all this you're describing, is told exactly what you're teaching here, and to be honest teaching what the vast majority of churches do teach, he goes up front, feels "the spirit", believes he is "inviting Jesus into his heart", repeats the prayer and is told, "go write down this date, this is the day you were saved". Then for good measure go to be baptized with the church the next time they do it. Yet is not saved? What do you tell this guy?
How about years later after a horrible trial hits his life and the false Jesus he was sold isn't helping at all? Then after years of wanting nothing more than to die, but couldn't bring himself to cut his wrist because of the 2 sons he has and can't bring himself to leave in this world with "my dad killed himself". Then hit's his knees broken after seeing exactly who and what he is on his own, and is granted repentance without having any clue what is going on. He just know he sucks and that he can't do this anymore. Already thought he knew what the whole Jesus/Christian thing was and because it didn't help was not at all seeking or "choosing" God in any way. Wasn't even a thought in his head. He then wakes up the next day and around lunch realizes in a road to Damascus moment "I haven't thought about killing myself today", and right there and then KNOWS 2 things. #1 Whatever this is it is from God. #2 Jesus Christ is His Son.
What do you say to this guy that did exactly what you're saying yet was not saved, then is saved and born again in a POWERFUL way exactly the way you seem to be saying is not right. That God doesn't do this ALL, and that it takes our mental affirmation to happen.
This guy was me and I believe God saved me this way for a reason. I understand what you're saying and I understand why you feel that way. For many people this is exactly how He saved them. This is how His word describes it in many places, that we are to choose this day who we serve. What I've come to see is that we can lift our decision above His power in our own heads if we aren't careful. That's why I really don't like the term "freewill". Jesus tells us that our will is enslaved to sin or to righteousness. There is no such thing as "freewill" according to Him, but I understand what people mean when they say it.
I was thrown off when I was first saved by this, I thought we could lose our salvation if we didn't "keep on keeping on", and believed it was spelled out clearly in His word. I could not understand how I could freely pick Jesus, I could choose Jesus but then He takes my free will and I can't choose to walk away if I wanted? I just meant this as a hypothetical and would always say "I could never do it but...", or "I don't see how anyone could but...". It just made no sense to me that I use my freewill to choose Jesus and then He takes that freewill and it's no longer possible to choose to walk away from Him. This whole line of thinking sadly has a much lower view of Gods power, and a way too high view of mans.
God is sovereign, tells us the end from the beginning, He does get ALL glory for our salvation because He draws us, He grants repentance, He keeps us through our sanctification, and He will glorify us as well. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved, and everything you think you've don't in regards to your salvation outside of receiving the gift, you should really rethink about, repent, and give God His glory you were trying to put on yourself.
How about years later after a horrible trial hits his life and the false Jesus he was sold isn't helping at all? Then after years of wanting nothing more than to die, but couldn't bring himself to cut his wrist because of the 2 sons he has and can't bring himself to leave in this world with "my dad killed himself". Then hit's his knees broken after seeing exactly who and what he is on his own, and is granted repentance without having any clue what is going on. He just know he sucks and that he can't do this anymore. Already thought he knew what the whole Jesus/Christian thing was and because it didn't help was not at all seeking or "choosing" God in any way. Wasn't even a thought in his head. He then wakes up the next day and around lunch realizes in a road to Damascus moment "I haven't thought about killing myself today", and right there and then KNOWS 2 things. #1 Whatever this is it is from God. #2 Jesus Christ is His Son.
What do you say to this guy that did exactly what you're saying yet was not saved, then is saved and born again in a POWERFUL way exactly the way you seem to be saying is not right. That God doesn't do this ALL, and that it takes our mental affirmation to happen.
This guy was me and I believe God saved me this way for a reason. I understand what you're saying and I understand why you feel that way. For many people this is exactly how He saved them. This is how His word describes it in many places, that we are to choose this day who we serve. What I've come to see is that we can lift our decision above His power in our own heads if we aren't careful. That's why I really don't like the term "freewill". Jesus tells us that our will is enslaved to sin or to righteousness. There is no such thing as "freewill" according to Him, but I understand what people mean when they say it.
I was thrown off when I was first saved by this, I thought we could lose our salvation if we didn't "keep on keeping on", and believed it was spelled out clearly in His word. I could not understand how I could freely pick Jesus, I could choose Jesus but then He takes my free will and I can't choose to walk away if I wanted? I just meant this as a hypothetical and would always say "I could never do it but...", or "I don't see how anyone could but...". It just made no sense to me that I use my freewill to choose Jesus and then He takes that freewill and it's no longer possible to choose to walk away from Him. This whole line of thinking sadly has a much lower view of Gods power, and a way too high view of mans.
God is sovereign, tells us the end from the beginning, He does get ALL glory for our salvation because He draws us, He grants repentance, He keeps us through our sanctification, and He will glorify us as well. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved, and everything you think you've don't in regards to your salvation outside of receiving the gift, you should really rethink about, repent, and give God His glory you were trying to put on yourself.
-
1
- Show all
From the Apostle Paul:
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
28 for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
As you can see in what Paul is saying here, the entire Creation of Humans are God's Own Offspring.
So to think God wants His Own Offspring to the point He makes them go to Hell on purpose is ridiculous.
Look at verse 26. This shows us God made it so men would be drawn to God and seek Him.
Look at verse 30. This shows us God wants ""ALL People"" to Repent.
So I agree with YOU that God is drawing us.
God even made it so we could see Him and seek Him.
God has done these things so ALL People would Repent.
Because ALL People are OFFSPRING to God, they are His Creation.
Naturally God is drawing ALL of us to Him.
But only a few of us Yield to Him is the problem.
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
28 for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
As you can see in what Paul is saying here, the entire Creation of Humans are God's Own Offspring.
So to think God wants His Own Offspring to the point He makes them go to Hell on purpose is ridiculous.
Look at verse 26. This shows us God made it so men would be drawn to God and seek Him.
Look at verse 30. This shows us God wants ""ALL People"" to Repent.
So I agree with YOU that God is drawing us.
God even made it so we could see Him and seek Him.
God has done these things so ALL People would Repent.
Because ALL People are OFFSPRING to God, they are His Creation.
Naturally God is drawing ALL of us to Him.
But only a few of us Yield to Him is the problem.
Repentance is part of Christian faith because that’s what God said ….faith isn’t just a word we say it has a meaning
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
we can’t have faith apart from the word of God is my point he clearly told believers they have to repent
a you are acting as if faith means “ never having to hear what God said and obey him “ tbat isn’t faith faith is when you hear what your God said and believe him
He told us of repentance that’s part of our faith
i can’t claim to be a man of faith if I hear what God said and reject it but if I hear and accept it I have faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
we can’t have faith apart from the word of God is my point he clearly told believers they have to repent
a you are acting as if faith means “ never having to hear what God said and obey him “ tbat isn’t faith faith is when you hear what your God said and believe him
He told us of repentance that’s part of our faith
i can’t claim to be a man of faith if I hear what God said and reject it but if I hear and accept it I have faith