The question of forgiveness

[Aaron56]

In regard to forgiveness of sins, I find that Christians have a difficult time reconciling the following verses with the teaching that "we are to forgive everyone all the time":

“And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

”Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. You too should beware of him, for he has vigorously opposed our message.”

(What repayment is left on a forgiven debt?)

“But as for me, brothers and sisters, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been eliminated. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In regard to forgiveness of sins, I find that Christians have a difficult time reconciling the following verses with the teaching that "we are to forgive everyone all the time":

“And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

”Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. You too should beware of him, for he has vigorously opposed our message.”

(What repayment is left on a forgiven debt?)

“But as for me, brothers and sisters, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been eliminated. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.”

“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We all have to do this showing that everything isn’t actually forgiven just willy nilly like

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

If this is true then this can save those who hear and believe the words of the judge we all have to see

what if Christ honors his words he said will never pass away at judgement ? and I heard this and believed it and took this to my heart

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, ( he just told us the law of mercy he the judge of all is saying it the one we have to answer to )

I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
( because this sinner is building his foundation on what the Lord said his judgements are )


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation ( because he’s rejecting what the judgement is ) built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:37-38, 46-49‬ ‭

If this is true

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how this can save me because o do still have to answer for my deeds like everyone this is very very important to accept notice this is being said to God the Fathers children by the Son in whom we believe

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice we can’t make this about unbelievers because the believers in Jesus are his children it’s being said to those who are willing to hear his judgements in the gospel.

without the things Jesus taught were flying blind because

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-36, 42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe something important we act upon it

Brother read Jesus parable of the unforgiving debtor it’s telling us about his kingdom and how it is . A man shows up with a debt he cannot pay so he asks for mercy the lord is compassionate and forgives all his debt by mercy totally wiped his whole debt away .

the man goes out rejoicing but he sees another man who owes him a small debt and it’s the same situation the man pleads with him to forgive or give him time to pay him but the man doesn’t give him the same mercy he receives for his big huge debt and has the man closed and thrown in prison till he pays him

after this happens the original man who had his debt canceled re appears with his whole debt reinstated because he would not give the same mercy and forgivness that he received

ashen Jesus begins parables “ the kingdom of God is likened to …or Matthew words “ the kingdom of heaven is like ….it’s telling us about our covenant and the word of our king that cannot be removed or disregarded

This has always been true then

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s still true

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

now what if we heard the judges judgements regarding the day we must give account what if he told us ahead of time “ forgive and you shall be forgiven , don’t condemn and you won’t be condemned don’t judge everyone guilty all the time and you won’t be judged guilty ….?

Do you see how mercy relates to judgement that we all have to face ?

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭

at here’s a New Testament Jesus words that went into effect after he died and rose not before but after all his words became the jidgement of god thisnis why bekieving the gospel saves us it’s preparing us to live through judgement by mercy and truth

That parable holds the right inderersnding we are forgiven when we believe but then if we reject his judgements we’re doing this because he is the judge and his words are the judgements of God in truth that actually save sinners and bring them to repentance

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But if we accept his word on the gospel he the judge

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats quite a word from the judge of humanity and when we face him for our deeds we want to have taken his judgements with us because he will honor what he said without fail

 

[Aaron56]

“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We all have to do this showing that everything isn’t actually forgiven just willy nilly like

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

If this is true then this can save those who hear and believe the words of the judge we all have to see

what if Christ honors his words he said will never pass away at judgement ? and I heard this and believed it and took this to my heart

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, ( he just told us the law of mercy he the judge of all is saying it the one we have to answer to )

I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
( because this sinner is building his foundation on what the Lord said his judgements are )


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation ( because he’s rejecting what the judgement is ) built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:37-38, 46-49‬ ‭

If this is true

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how this can save me because o do still have to answer for my deeds like everyone this is very very important to accept notice this is being said to God the Fathers children by the Son in whom we believe

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice we can’t make this about unbelievers because the believers in Jesus are his children it’s being said to those who are willing to hear his judgements in the gospel.

without the things Jesus taught were flying blind because

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-36, 42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe something important we act upon it

Brother read Jesus parable of the unforgiving debtor it’s telling us about his kingdom and how it is . A man shows up with a debt he cannot pay so he asks for mercy the lord is compassionate and forgives all his debt by mercy totally wiped his whole debt away .

the man goes out rejoicing but he sees another man who owes him a small debt and it’s the same situation the man pleads with him to forgive or give him time to pay him but the man doesn’t give him the same mercy he receives for his big huge debt and has the man closed and thrown in prison till he pays him

after this happens the original man who had his debt canceled re appears with his whole debt reinstated because he would not give the same mercy and forgivness that he received

ashen Jesus begins parables “ the kingdom of God is likened to …or Matthew words “ the kingdom of heaven is like ….it’s telling us about our covenant and the word of our king that cannot be removed or disregarded

This has always been true then

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s still true

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

now what if we heard the judges judgements regarding the day we must give account what if he told us ahead of time “ forgive and you shall be forgiven , don’t condemn and you won’t be condemned don’t judge everyone guilty all the time and you won’t be judged guilty ….?

Do you see how mercy relates to judgement that we all have to face ?

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭

at here’s a New Testament Jesus words that went into effect after he died and rose not before but after all his words became the jidgement of god thisnis why bekieving the gospel saves us it’s preparing us to live through judgement by mercy and truth

That parable holds the right inderersnding we are forgiven when we believe but then if we reject his judgements we’re doing this because he is the judge and his words are the judgements of God in truth that actually save sinners and bring them to repentance

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But if we accept his word on the gospel he the judge

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats quite a word from the judge of humanity and when we face him for our deeds we want to have taken his judgements with us because he will honor what he said without fail

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

 

[Mem]

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

Great point. Either way, all sin will ultimately be gone forever, whether with or without the sinner attached to them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

Brother he told that to one of his apostles not the general church . These men established everything all of us read about and believe that’s why he told those men that that’s not an instruction for people trying to be saved 2000 years later it’s a kingdom being conferred to his twelve chosen later to include Paul , because Jesus was going to heaven and used the apostles to spread the gospel to fulfill the great commission. He gave them judgement of the church they were commissioned to spread regarding this

even today bro in a church group the leadership are allowed to cast someone out , there’s doctrine jesus taught for this because a sinner can disrupt a whole church of they don’t have structure and rule of some kind gentle and forebearing though it is

forgivness is just the thruth from Jesus to believers of the gospel it’s also that something you do in prayer between you and God “ lord please don’t hold that against this person even if it’s hard for me you can give me strength , I forgive them to you between us and ask you’ll help them change “

We have forebearance to perform the actions if we get the spirit right firet the thought.

forgiving here is just Jesus telling us the truth of you do you can expect it but if you don’t you shouldn’t . It’s a word of faith not a written command it’s meant to impact someone who believes and needs mercy and remembers thier sins too

think of it this way of Jesus died for everyone’s sin , why would any of us want to be the one not forgiving them ?

Read Jesus teachings then read him telling Peter “ whoever’s sins ye remit they are remitted whoever sins you retain they are retained “ and remember oeter was filled with the Holy Ghost and was one of twelve men Jesus himself chose disregarding Judas. Peter would use Jesus judgements when he preached the word Is my point it’s always jesus ways not we also if we’re just a Christian commoner we don’t need to worry about a charge given an apostle

 

[Cameron143]

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

You don't make the distinction between sins involving God versus people? Peter seems to be particularly harsh towards those whose transgression is directly against God. This is true in the example you gave as well as with Annanias and Sapphira.
This seems to be the case with Jesus as well in His condemnation of the Pharisees. Yet, He asks forgiveness for those who nailed Him to the cross.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”


If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

“if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement"

or hear what Jesus said and believe him if we have any issues with it so he can change that I forgiving heart of ours maybe his word can change our issues
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

( that’s why we must be merciful that’s what the kingdom is likened to this man at the end was forgiven then he didn’t realize he needed to also forgive because he doesn’t do it and look what happens to his debt that was forgiven by the ruler )

And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-23, 34-35‬ ‭



Where does one learn Gods eternal judgements ?And isnt what your saying the reason Jesus commanded them to go preach the things he taught them to all creation all nations and whoever believed would be saved


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason for that is because those are Gods eternal judgements the things Jesus taught I mean like “forgive and you will be forgiven forgive not and you will not be “ those things are what he means he was going around oreschong these things and then making these types of claims

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-29‬ ‭

then after he said

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

forgiving others is basic stuff your right but how come so many people don’t believe what Jesus the son said about it to Gods children ? Maybe no one ever said “ hey look what jesus said here when Peter one of his chief disciples asked about forgivness “

Peter knew Jesus had the answers to his inquiries

 

[Aaron56]

Brother he told that to one of his apostles not the general church . These men established everything all of us read about and believe that’s why he told those men that that’s not an instruction for people trying to be saved 2000 years later it’s a kingdom being conferred to his twelve chosen later to include Paul , because Jesus was going to heaven and used the apostles to spread the gospel to fulfill the great commission. He gave them judgement of the church they were commissioned to spread regarding this

even today bro in a church group the leadership are allowed to cast someone out , there’s doctrine jesus taught for this because a sinner can disrupt a whole church of they don’t have structure and rule of some kind gentle and forebearing though it is

forgivness is just the thruth from Jesus to believers of the gospel it’s also that something you do in prayer between you and God “ lord please don’t hold that against this person even if it’s hard for me you can give me strength , I forgive them to you between us and ask you’ll help them change “

We have forebearance to perform the actions if we get the spirit right firet the thought.

forgiving here is just Jesus telling us the truth of you do you can expect it but if you don’t you shouldn’t . It’s a word of faith not a written command it’s meant to impact someone who believes and needs mercy and remembers thier sins too

think of it this way of Jesus died for everyone’s sin , why would any of us want to be the one not forgiving them ?

Read Jesus teachings then read him telling Peter “ whoever’s sins ye remit they are remitted whoever sins you retain they are retained “ and remember oeter was filled with the Holy Ghost and was one of twelve men Jesus himself chose disregarding Judas. Peter would use Jesus judgements when he preached the word Is my point it’s always jesus ways not we also if we’re just a Christian commoner we don’t need to worry about a charge given an apostle

Correct. Although I don’t see the separation between what he told the Apostles and His call to me.

 

[Aaron56]

You don't make the distinction between sins involving God versus people? Peter seems to be particularly harsh towards those whose transgression is directly against God. This is true in the example you gave as well as with Annanias and Sapphira.
This seems to be the case with Jesus as well in His condemnation of the Pharisees. Yet, He asks forgiveness for those who nailed Him to the cross.

The offense cause by the coppersmith seemed directed at Paul. Yet Paul asked the Lord for his comeuppance. That’s enough for me.

Perhaps there is a distinction. I know I may forgive a sin against myself but I cannot forgive a sin against my wife, I must act. Even so, it defeats the “always forgive” doctrine. It seems, for example, that when we judge angels, they will not be forgiven but it might be merciful to send them into swine.

 

[Aaron56]

“if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement"

or hear what Jesus said and believe him if we have any issues with it so he can change that I forgiving heart of ours maybe his word can change our issues
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

( that’s why we must be merciful that’s what the kingdom is likened to this man at the end was forgiven then he didn’t realize he needed to also forgive because he doesn’t do it and look what happens to his debt that was forgiven by the ruler )

And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-23, 34-35‬ ‭



Where does one learn Gods eternal judgements ?And isnt what your saying the reason Jesus commanded them to go preach the things he taught them to all creation all nations and whoever believed would be saved


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason for that is because those are Gods eternal judgements the things Jesus taught I mean like “forgive and you will be forgiven forgive not and you will not be “ those things are what he means he was going around oreschong these things and then making these types of claims

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-29‬ ‭

then after he said

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

forgiving others is basic stuff your right but how come so many people don’t believe what Jesus the son said about it to Gods children ? Maybe no one ever said “ hey look what jesus said here when Peter one of his chief disciples asked about forgivness “

Peter knew Jesus had the answers to his inquiries

Forgiveness is so important! On that we agree.
The typical way it is taught, however, is from the perspective of beggar and not a son of God.

 

[Cameron143]

The offense cause by the coppersmith seemed directed at Paul. Yet Paul asked the Lord for his comeuppance. That’s enough for me.

Perhaps there is a distinction. I know I may forgive a sin against myself but I cannot forgive a sin against my wife, I must act. Even so, it defeats the “always forgive” doctrine. It seems, for example, that when we judge angels, they will not be forgiven but it might be merciful to send them into swine.

I'm apt to believe Paul would be more upset by his inability to do the work of the kingdom as opposed to personal harm. So whatever the coppersmith did, I personally think the harm was to Paul's ability to minister. I say this because Paul called himself a prisoner of the Lord. He didn't lay the charge of his imprisonment upon the religious leaders or the secular authorities.
On a personal note, I have found the source of my own reticence to forgive generally lies in my own pride. People as a lot are very offensive. Thankfully, there is no commandment to take offense.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Correct. Although I don’t see the separation between what he told the Apostles and His call to me.

You are called to either remit any given persons sins or hold it against them by Gods authority ?

 

[Aaron56]

I'm apt to believe Paul would be more upset by his inability to do the work of the kingdom as opposed to personal harm. So whatever the coppersmith did, I personally think the harm was to Paul's ability to minister. I say this because Paul called himself a prisoner of the Lord. He didn't lay the charge of his imprisonment upon the religious leaders or the secular authorities.
On a personal note, I have found the source of my own reticence to forgive generally lies in my own pride. People as a lot are very offensive. Thankfully, there is no commandment to take offense.

I know you’re not saying this but God doesn’t need anyone to defend Him or His message. Certainly the coppersmith, whatever his offense, could not have prevailed against Kingdom.

 

[Aaron56]

You are called to either remit any given persons sins or hold it against them by Gods authority ?

And so are you, if you can receive it. With the intent to always restore the offender. How do you understand Matthew 18?

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

[Cameron143]

I know you’re not saying this but God doesn’t need anyone to defend Him or His message. Certainly the coppersmith, whatever his offense, could not have prevailed against Kingdom.

Right, from God's perspective. I was speaking more concerning Paul's ability to minister.

 

[Aaron56]

Right, from God's perspective. I was speaking more concerning Paul's ability to minister.

It would seem Paul could have made a better case against the Jews from Antioch and Iconium who worked up the crowds to stone him.

 

[Aaron56]

"You sit over there and someone will speak to you shortly."

The typical church experience is very much like our experience in a physician's waiting room. We go to the building where we are to obtain service then wait patiently in our seats until the expert arrives. After the expert talks we disperse.

There is nothing organic about the experience. There's a process, often written down in the form of a "Robert's Rules of Order" agenda, and we follow the process until the end. Indeed, even parts of the process are labeled "opening" and "closing" so that the people know when they've fulfilled their duty and can leave.

A family is not organized like that nor does it function in such a way. A family is led by the mature, typically older, members. When once they simply pulled their chair up to the table to be fed, the mature learned to bring their resources and wisdom to the table to feed others. This happened naturally as they retained the lessons taught by the older members of their generation. Instead of dissecting the family into castes or offices, they grow together, the mature teaching the young by word and most especially by example.

The church is designed like a family. Indeed, it is the prototypical family for all families. In the phrase "House of God" the word "house" is "family". It denotes a family (House) whose origin is specific (of God). All members of the family of God are to grow and mature to the standard of their father, God. Furthermore, since God has chosen Christ to represent Him in all things fully, we can look to Christ as our example.

So, when Jesus said to His disciples "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

They knew even this was couched within His words "..teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you." The Apostles were the first to be sent, the first enlisted in the work of the Kingdom, and, because the House of God is a family that grows from the example of the mature, the one's whose lives were patterns for the others to follow.

Paul would write to Timothy, whom he sent, "I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to maintain these principles without bias, and to do nothing out of partiality." Which principles? The ones Paul just wrote about.

To the Corinthians Paul would write "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ."

Earlier he would write to them "..but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me."

This is a man who knows his place in the House of God: as one who may set an example for others to follow. Even more so, as a father who may birth faith within children of God. Paul is a father of their faith and so he may be received as a father in the house. This is not a title, as the Romans have made it, but a natural order of an organic house.

Do you see the pattern: Christ > Paul > the Corinthian saints. A clear line of succession, from the head of the church (Christ) to the body of all believers. There is always a mediary to the next generation. In this case it was Paul. From the Corinthian believers others would step up, or grow up, into maturity to be the next example to others. Ideally, any way.

I'll leave Ephesians Chapter 4 below. This passage is the framework upon which I have built this understanding. One note: even gifts are to be shared. If one possesses the gift of an apostle it is not so that he may lord over the people, it is so that he may impart to the people his understanding of foundational things and explanations of mysteries and of wisdom. If one member of the body is gifted it is for the benefit of the whole body.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

A teacher should teach others how to teach. A pastor should teach others how to care for the people. A prophet should teach others how to hear God as He speaks to our spirits. An evangelist should teach others how to share the love of God among one another. An apostle should teach others foundational care for the house and how to administrate wisdom among the saints.

My last point: because the church IS NOT organized like an organic family, but, rather, like an institution, the people are not growing up. They are not maturing. So, instruction about things like forgiveness is always taught down to the most common denominator (if you will), the new believer. "Forgive everyone, all the time" is taught without regard to the scriptures that teach otherwise and the examples from the mature who went before us.

 

[TolworthJohn]

17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

Jesus links repentance as a precursor to forgiveness. It is also how God deals with us, we are not forgiven until we repented of our sins.
Jesus was addressing a Jewish audience, who understood that repentance was essential for forgiveness.
Loo, at how the sacrificial rituals assumed the worshipper was repentant in offering a sacrifice for his sins.
This precursor underlines the many repeated injunctions to forgive.

So how should a Christian deal with someone who has been hurt, abused, betrayed etc etc.

Matt5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
Phil4: 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

We are to pray for the good of those who hate/harm us and we are to tell God about that situation.
Our examp.e is Jesus who on the cross prayed for the good of those killing him.

As we pray for those who have hurt us, as we submit our feelings about them and what they have done to God, we will not only leave the situation I God's hands but slowly come to love those who have hurt us.

There is no blanket of forgiveness for the unrepentant either from God or from us.
Rather we are to love them,by praying for their good and leaving justice in God's hands.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[/QUOTE]

And so are you, if you can receive it. With the intent to always restore the offender. How do you understand Matthew 18?

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

brother you can’t decide of anyone else is forgiven by God he commanded believers to always forgive others who sin against them .

I never would have thought you believed this way . Only God can forgive a man’s sin and o my he suffered and died for those sins .


The twelve apostles are foundations of his church written in heaven chosen by God in the flesh

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you don’t think those men who completed the nt of the Bible had more authority than we do today over other people in Christ ?

I’m definately not like them nor do I expect my name on the foundations of the walls of the kingdom brother. But I can’t dispute any calling you have received only stating my own thoughts .

I just hope to be a shoe shiner that squeezes in on Jesus words still who’s going to judge me .I’ve never yet learned all Jesus’s and his apostles taught . To see my calling i gotta look backwards and realize it was to be a disciple of Jesus through his teachings and trust in him to save my soul when I have to do this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The apostles I feel are designated men those who the risen lord appeared to and also called to establish his church

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ( I feel this is a command to his chosen apostles of Israel’s tribes )
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t feel myself that I’m peters equal or called to be the rock he would build his church . so I sort feel Jesus seemons to the masses is where my calling is found . Again I don’t know brother between you and the lord and can only speak for me and my thoughts.

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12:12‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-18, 20‬ ‭

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sometimes jesus is speaking just to those who were his chosen followers who walked around the earth following wherever he went , other times to all believers other times to those who didn’t believe in him other times to those trying to kill him and plotting his murder .

sometimes he’s talking to a greedy man other times to a proud man I think myself that Peter is who he’s talking to there and not me for sure but you ? I don’t doubt whatever you believe your calling is for sure brother or do I pretend to know your dealings and relationship with God so don’t hold that against me😂😅😂

 

[Aaron56]

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ( I feel this is a command to his chosen apostles of Israel’s tribes )
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t feel myself that I’m peters equal or called to be the rock he would build his church . so I sort feel Jesus seemons to the masses is where my calling is found . Again I don’t know brother between you and the lord and can only speak for me and my thoughts.

You're good, my friend.

I think the difference between your thoughts and my thoughts is that I believe the apostolic gift continues today as a grace within the Body and within men. There were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb but there were other apostles mentioned in scripture.

Furthermore, in light of the people of God being the family of God, the natural inclination of a perfect and holy family is that the members build up and strengthen one another according to the leading of the head, who is Christ.

Then, equality (like comparing ourselves to Peter) is not a consideration within the Body. If we have a measure of something another does not have, we are to share that thing with others in the Body. The Body is necessary for the Body.

By these principles, family and body, all members are inherently connected to each other. Where one is advanced he is to teach and minister, where one is weak the others rise to protect. Where one lacks the others provide, etc.

Lastly, in the history of man only One man has ever decided that a person is forgiven or not forgiven for their sins: Christ Jesus. Man does not have the authority to forgive sins.

BUT

As the man is led by the Spirit, he can pronounce that another's sins are forgiven. We saw this extension of grace and mercy in Jesus and later in the apostles. The apostles imparted this grace to the ones to whom they were called.

I knew a man who was put out the church for leaving his wife for another woman and remained in rebellion. It was at my direction that the man was put out. I simply told the church "Do not eat with him" so this excluded him from gatherings around holidays and the like.

After 18 months had passed, the man showed up at my door. He looked haggard, thin, weak, and sickly. He was in tears. He said "I am so sorry. I am so sorry. I hurt my wife and children. I hurt my family. I am ashamed." on and on and all this through tears. He was sobbing.

Now, I have it on good account that when we confess our sins, the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So I said, "Brother, your sins are forgiven". He collapsed into my arms. I held him as he sobbed. Then, since I directed the church to not eat with him, I arranged a feast for the church at our home with the brother invited. It was a time for healing for everyone.

Now, I didn't have the authority to forgive the sins of that brother BUT I could pronounce when his sins were forgiven. When I did, I was echoing the sound in heaven, if you will, in the earth. My pronouncement served as a witness to all who heard it.

The Lord will let us know when one is forgiven. And, if it helps them, He will direct us to speak it over them. By this we can impart the mercy of God to them. And not only forgiveness, but spiritual gifts, grace, and wisdom...

"For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift..."

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

"...from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."

My friend, I never tire of sharing my mind with you and other here.