Only those in the Church in Jerusalem in 70 AD were raptured?
Really? That is fascinating to know.
Where did you learn this?
Please give me chapter and verse.
Election teaches that salvation comes from the Lord.
- Thread starter Foghorn
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Only those in the Church in Jerusalem in 70 AD were raptured?
Really? That is fascinating to know.
Where did you learn this?
Please give me chapter and verse.
Yes, this is right. But if you read
Nope, I disagree. There is no hint which suggest that the meaning is spiritual. Joel speaks from a real happening for Israel.
Do as Jesus will rule on earth for 1000 years.
Also there is no hint for the 144k Evangelist spread out after Jerusalem fall in the year 70.
This is a man made theory.
But I like more to trust the word of God.
and yet David prayed Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Psalm 51:11).
All sin results in broken fellowship with the Father ...
The born again believer is a child of God by and through the new birth (regeneration). However, if/when the born again one sins, the result is broken fellowship ... still a child of God, but the relationship is affected.
The instruction for the born again believer who sins ... the believer is to confess his or her sins to God and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
1 John 1:10-2:2 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.
David was a Jewish OT believer. Only a very few were given the enduement of the Spirit. Mostly kings and prophets.
As the Holy Spirit was given to them? God could remove His Spirit. (Psalm 51:11)
With the Church? We are regenerated and possess the post Atonement of the Cross. We now get permanent indwelling Holy Spirit.
If we sin we will lose 'fellowship' with the Spirit. But, the Spirit will not be removed.
Now? If a Christian lives a wrong way of life? God will not remove His Spirit as He could have with David.
Instead, the Spirit is grieved, yet remains always with us.
The OT consequence of a believer sinning is shown in our ability to cut ourselves off from the enabling power of the Spirit.
But, in our case? The Spirit stays in the rebellious believer in either a grieved or quenched state - Leaving the indwelling Spirit unable to empower with grace any further growth until the believer either confesses his sins, or in the case of seeking false teaching? Repents.
grace and peace ...................
yes I agree ... however, I do not believe rogerg is in agreement with your statement. rogerg can clarify if what you state is his understanding as well.
yes, in agreement.Genez said:
If a person claims to be a born again believer ... yet is comfortable in his or her sin (i.e. is not convicted in his or her heart by the Holy Spirit) ... the lack of conviction by the Holy Spirit is an indication that he or she is not born again.
yes ... which is why we have folks who have been born again for years / decades ... yet still remain spiritual infants ... well, that (refusing to die to self = sin) and/or wrong teaching from the pulpits ...Genez said:
Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The reference to a "frankensteinfurter" made me laugh. The comparison between the temple veil and the foreskin of our hearts is interesting and was not immediately obvious to me until you raised it, although I thought the spiritual foreskin needed to be circum-cised (cut around) to remove completely, rather than just being torn and potentially scarring, resulting in one of those frankensteinfurter-skins and causing even more heart problems!
Yea, whether top to bottom or circum(vented?), it's still completely torn away. And as I think more about it, neither was the veil to the temple nor the foreskin is so easily torn. I vaguely remember reading of the veil being extraordinarily thick, giving me the impression that it doesn't 'flap in the wind.'The reference to a "frankensteinfurter" made me laugh. The comparison between the temple veil and the foreskin of our hearts is interesting and was not immediately obvious to me until you raised it, although I thought the spiritual foreskin needed to be circum-cised (cut around) to remove completely, rather than just being torn and potentially scarring, resulting in one of those frankensteinfurter-skins and causing even more heart problems!
So, I did mean to be in the sense of complete removal, and so reattaching it would require a rather intentional operation, with the help of a needle and sutures and a determined (steady) hand, not that nuts and bolts and electric volt charges need to be applied, but...
I'm pretty that, if my thoughts were an animal, they'd be wild horses.
This conclusion is systematic theology first, Scripture second.
Heard > believed > sealed.
The hearing is spiritual, not physical/human. One must be of His sheep in order to hear. That means they must first
have been saved and born again to do so.
So, it is saved/born again > hear> believe > sealed.
[Jhn 10:26-28 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The Bible tells us that even the Disciples did not understand the majority of things Jesus said.
The Bible even furthers that understanding to when they received the Holy Spirit, had God living inside of them, THEN they knew the meaning to things Jesus had spoke about.
So the verses you use shows us no one would or could know the meaning until they were FILLED with the Holy Spirit and that did not happen to Later.
So typical, there you go again presenting a few verses out of place and misrepresenting the whole Bible and meaning.
Evidence of a false doctrine.
So according to the Bible, the Sheep only can HEAR after being FILLED with the Holy Spirit, which does not happen until you First HEAR the Gospel, Believe, Filled with the Spirit and Sealed.
Wrong again. Being indwelled by the Holy Sprit comes with spiritual rebirth, with spiritual hearing/discernment coming from that. Being filled with the Holy Spirit on the other hand is different and occurs on a situational basis, for example, when they (below) spoke in tongues.
You should first do some biblical research before you state untruths and by it mislead others regarding salvation. So, the false doctrine is yours.
[Act 2:4 KJV] 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
But they already heard the Gospel and BELIEVED before your verse 4 happens.
The BIBLE proves Hearing, Believing, Filled with Holy Spirit 5 times and NOWHERE does it ever say it like you believe.
I trust the BIBLE because it shows 5 examples of HEARING, BELIEVING, FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRT.
It's time for you to stop denying what the Bible says 5 times and NEVER says what you claim ANYWHERE!
They had already heard the Gospel spiritually (with spiritual discernment) and thereby, believed. Not everyone who hears
the Gospel with human earthly ears can believe unless having first been indwelt by the Holy and given spiritual ears, from which, they are given spiritual discernment. Being "filled" is different than being indwelt. Being "filled" is on a situational basis for a given specific purpose and is exactly what I said it is. Once it occurs, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is permanent and He never leaves.
[Act 2:4 KJV]
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[Act 4:8, 31 KJV]
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, ...
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
[Act 9:17-18 KJV]
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
[Act 13:9-10 KJV]
9 Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
“I like more to trust the word of God.”
consider what these scriptures are saying
“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
John 14:2-3 KJV
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Hebrews 11:13-14, 16
“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22-24
“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
Revelation 3:12
“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
Isaiah 65:17-18 KJV
“
“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
Galatians 4:24-26 KJV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV
“Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.”
Luke 11:48-51 KJV
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:10-12, 17 KJV
After the end of this world we know now
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, ( this is the kingdom of God now arriving after this worlds ends and the veil is lifted ) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 21:1-2 KJV
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:4-5 KJV
There’s definitely a hint of a heavenly place that is forever that will become known after the current things are destroyed
even two Jerusalems one in heaven one on earth one will last and one will be destroyed or pass away
None of Your verses say the Holy Spirit came before Hearing the Gospel.
Why do you continue to say things the Bible proves to be WRONG?
It's always HEARING the Gospel then BELIEVING then FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.
The Bible NEVER EVER SAYS it like the Reformed doctrine.
The Bible alone proves the Reformed doctrine to be FALSE!
I'm not going to continue running in circles with you over this topic - I have already proved my point with scripture. I'll just leave
you with these verses. If you want understanding, read them carefully
[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
You're not running in circles YOU ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM THE BIBLE!
Run Run Run shew scat move run buh bye get out of here denying what the Bible PROVES 5 TIMES and NEVER says what you claim!!
To your Post:
None of Your verses say the Holy Spirit came before Hearing the Gospel.
Why do you continue to say things the Bible proves to be WRONG?
It's always HEARING the Gospel then BELIEVING then FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.
The Bible NEVER EVER SAYS it like the Reformed doctrine.
The Bible alone proves the Reformed doctrine to be FALSE!
By saying the above, it's obvious that you either didn't read or didn't understand 1Co 2:12-14. Had you read and understood them,
then you would never have made the above reply. Those verse specifically answer what you said I didn't provide.
Read them again only more carefully this time and think about what they're saying - try to connect the dots - it's all right there.
At this point, I'm done.
Your verses do not say the Holy Spirit comes before HEARING the Gospel.
Stop LYING!!
None of Your verses say the Holy Spirit came before Hearing the Gospel.
Why do you continue to say things the Bible proves to be WRONG?
It's always HEARING the Gospel then BELIEVING then FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.
The Bible NEVER EVER SAYS it like the Reformed doctrine.
The Bible alone proves the Reformed doctrine to be FALSE!