Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"
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I agree that God's sovereign election in chapter nine of Romans concerns
the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.
Not God's sovereign election of any individual, Paul is not talking about
why that person is elect and someone else is non elect. Paul is talking about
why Israel failed to attain to righteousness.
Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law
of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though they could by works.
See, Paul is discussing to different sets of people, Israel and the Gentiles.
I recommend you start reading Romans chapter nine, ten and eleven.
Pay careful attention to the context, which is why Israel failed!
Otherwise, you distort the scripture and divide the Christian world!
the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.
Not God's sovereign election of any individual, Paul is not talking about
why that person is elect and someone else is non elect. Paul is talking about
why Israel failed to attain to righteousness.
Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law
of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though they could by works.
See, Paul is discussing to different sets of people, Israel and the Gentiles.
I recommend you start reading Romans chapter nine, ten and eleven.
Pay careful attention to the context, which is why Israel failed!
Otherwise, you distort the scripture and divide the Christian world!
I think this is such a backwards way of thinking about it. You say "The claim is that no one can have faith unless God wills it."
Okay fair enough, but that also puts every bit of the glory EXACTLY where it belongs, with God.
For some reason you can see this problem glaringly, yet seem completely blind to the faults in what you're saying. You are literally claiming glory for your faith/decision/choice that does not belong to you.(and I feel sure this is not at all how you think of it)
The thing is that I never looked at it how you describe and think that "the Calvinist" believe "God chose me and He chooses who goes to hell as well. I'm elected and God just arbitrarily chooses up or down for people", lucky me right? I do not believe that and never have, yet I'm sure that is what you would label me and how you'd sum up my beliefs, for me. However you are right, I do give God ALL the glory for saving me, I have to if you've ever heard how He saved me, I have no other choice but to say God did 100% of every bit of it. From granting me repentance to me waking up a completely new man overnight, and all these things after I was falsely converted years earlier making the very "choice" people sell so hard. I testify this too often I think, that's why I'm not writing it all out again now, but His word is VERY, VERY CLEAR that salvation is a work of God and men cannot save themselves. It says He save and keeps us. It also says we need to choose this day who we will serve, and that we must strive to do what is pleasing to Him, so I do not at all deny we have a will of our own, I just know that without His power we are completely dead in our sins. So I truly believe the way Gods sovereignty works with peoples will to bring about His plan is the biggest mystery that we may never be able to grasp on either side of the grave, but what I do know is that putting too high a value on our "choice" lead straight to other falsehoods like being able to lose salvation, and having to adhere to certain rules to keep salvation. These ideas and beliefs discount and minimize Gods real power to save us and puts that burden on our shoulders. Trust me, we can't carry it far. So do you see how I can look at the exact same thing from a little different perspective and it seems much more like we are closer in belief than we sometimes think? I understand you don't see your views the way I describe them, and I actually understand how and why you see these matters the way you do, but I don't like needlessly and pointlessly debating back and forth about topics that the other person falsely represents you on. This cuts both ways too.
This also answers another question I just read in this conversation about "did God lie when he told Adam he would die the DAY he ate." The answer to this is that he did die that very day. He did spiritually, completely dead and disconnected from the Holy Creator. Every offspring he had was born the same way, spiritually dead, with no possible way to "fix" the problem. This is why the virgin birth is such a necessary and important thing, Jesus was not born with a disconnected and dead spirit, He was born of the Spirit, not Adam. That is why and how He could be the ONLY sacrifice possible ever in history. So God did not lie in the garden, the very day Adam ate he did die just like God told him.
Okay fair enough, but that also puts every bit of the glory EXACTLY where it belongs, with God.
For some reason you can see this problem glaringly, yet seem completely blind to the faults in what you're saying. You are literally claiming glory for your faith/decision/choice that does not belong to you.(and I feel sure this is not at all how you think of it)
The thing is that I never looked at it how you describe and think that "the Calvinist" believe "God chose me and He chooses who goes to hell as well. I'm elected and God just arbitrarily chooses up or down for people", lucky me right? I do not believe that and never have, yet I'm sure that is what you would label me and how you'd sum up my beliefs, for me. However you are right, I do give God ALL the glory for saving me, I have to if you've ever heard how He saved me, I have no other choice but to say God did 100% of every bit of it. From granting me repentance to me waking up a completely new man overnight, and all these things after I was falsely converted years earlier making the very "choice" people sell so hard. I testify this too often I think, that's why I'm not writing it all out again now, but His word is VERY, VERY CLEAR that salvation is a work of God and men cannot save themselves. It says He save and keeps us. It also says we need to choose this day who we will serve, and that we must strive to do what is pleasing to Him, so I do not at all deny we have a will of our own, I just know that without His power we are completely dead in our sins. So I truly believe the way Gods sovereignty works with peoples will to bring about His plan is the biggest mystery that we may never be able to grasp on either side of the grave, but what I do know is that putting too high a value on our "choice" lead straight to other falsehoods like being able to lose salvation, and having to adhere to certain rules to keep salvation. These ideas and beliefs discount and minimize Gods real power to save us and puts that burden on our shoulders. Trust me, we can't carry it far. So do you see how I can look at the exact same thing from a little different perspective and it seems much more like we are closer in belief than we sometimes think? I understand you don't see your views the way I describe them, and I actually understand how and why you see these matters the way you do, but I don't like needlessly and pointlessly debating back and forth about topics that the other person falsely represents you on. This cuts both ways too.
This also answers another question I just read in this conversation about "did God lie when he told Adam he would die the DAY he ate." The answer to this is that he did die that very day. He did spiritually, completely dead and disconnected from the Holy Creator. Every offspring he had was born the same way, spiritually dead, with no possible way to "fix" the problem. This is why the virgin birth is such a necessary and important thing, Jesus was not born with a disconnected and dead spirit, He was born of the Spirit, not Adam. That is why and how He could be the ONLY sacrifice possible ever in history. So God did not lie in the garden, the very day Adam ate he did die just like God told him.
We have TWO Laws that are both true.
The First Law:
1. Acts chapter 17, the Apostle Paul shows that ALL humans created from Adam and Eve are:
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring
And because we are God's Offspring that God:
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth
27 that they should seek God
So the First Law is God made it so ALL humans, God's Offspring, that has the ability to SEEK HIM.
The Second Law:
2. David and the Apostle Paul explain that unfortunately man does not SEEK God even though he has that ability. So God seeks man.
The Prophet Joel also shows us WHO GOD will SEEK:
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come
So we can see ALL people until Jesus Returns (Second Coming) is being sought by God.
We know this is about the Second Coming because Joel describes the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:
3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.
^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
So we can say for an absolute fact that God is pouring out His Spirit on ALL FLESH, not just a select few.
The First Law:
1. Acts chapter 17, the Apostle Paul shows that ALL humans created from Adam and Eve are:
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring
And because we are God's Offspring that God:
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth
27 that they should seek God
So the First Law is God made it so ALL humans, God's Offspring, that has the ability to SEEK HIM.
The Second Law:
2. David and the Apostle Paul explain that unfortunately man does not SEEK God even though he has that ability. So God seeks man.
The Prophet Joel also shows us WHO GOD will SEEK:
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come
So we can see ALL people until Jesus Returns (Second Coming) is being sought by God.
We know this is about the Second Coming because Joel describes the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:
3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.
^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
So we can say for an absolute fact that God is pouring out His Spirit on ALL FLESH, not just a select few.
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Thus says Adonai,
who gives the sun as a light by day
and the fixed order of the moon
and the stars as a light by night,
who stirs up the sea so its waves roar,
Adonai-Tzva’ot is His Name:
“Only if this fixed order departs from before Me”
—it is a declaration of Adonai—
“then also might Israel’s offspring cease
from being a nation
before Me—for all time.”
(Jeremiah 31:34-35)
Notice that God uses the specific wording “Only if this fixed order departs from before Me”
The fixed order is talking about the sun, moon, stars stop doing what God created them to do. And we know nothing as the such has happened. So todays people are a direct bloodline remnant of this prophesy in Jeremiah concerning the Jews of that day.
We also know from other Books discussing the end time events that 144,000 of these biological Jews existing today, the remnant, will be a major force for God pouring out His Spirit in the Tribulation like Joel prophesies about.
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come
We know this is about the time before the Second Coming because Joel is describing the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:
3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.
^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
Today, we already know about Messianic Jews, Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah and Savior.
So it's clear these Jews are part of both covenants but will merge into the second covenant before the return of Jesus.
who gives the sun as a light by day
and the fixed order of the moon
and the stars as a light by night,
who stirs up the sea so its waves roar,
Adonai-Tzva’ot is His Name:
“Only if this fixed order departs from before Me”
—it is a declaration of Adonai—
“then also might Israel’s offspring cease
from being a nation
before Me—for all time.”
(Jeremiah 31:34-35)
Notice that God uses the specific wording “Only if this fixed order departs from before Me”
The fixed order is talking about the sun, moon, stars stop doing what God created them to do. And we know nothing as the such has happened. So todays people are a direct bloodline remnant of this prophesy in Jeremiah concerning the Jews of that day.
We also know from other Books discussing the end time events that 144,000 of these biological Jews existing today, the remnant, will be a major force for God pouring out His Spirit in the Tribulation like Joel prophesies about.
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come
We know this is about the time before the Second Coming because Joel is describing the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:
3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.
^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
Today, we already know about Messianic Jews, Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah and Savior.
So it's clear these Jews are part of both covenants but will merge into the second covenant before the return of Jesus.
Sorry to be slow. I'm just consolidating your 3 posts I see outstanding.
I'm going to leave you to yourself and others. You have a way with logical fallacies, but they're pointless.
Pick a Scripture from the systematic theology you're clearly pushing, and I'll watch for you to put forth your clear interpretation and see what I think of it. Other than that, further offering to discuss Scripture in some detail with someone who thinks posting lists of purported proof-text verse references others came up with is letting Scripture interpret Scripture is not of further interest.
It is impossible for Israelites to become gentiles.
And yes, the promises made to Abraham are fully satisfied in the nation Israel ONLY in the New Covenant.
Should be obvious.
And yes, Israel will always be God's nation of priests after the Second Coming. They will be recommissioned to service.
The OT is loaded to the brim with these prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
And yes, the promises made to Abraham are fully satisfied in the nation Israel ONLY in the New Covenant.
Should be obvious.
And yes, Israel will always be God's nation of priests after the Second Coming. They will be recommissioned to service.
The OT is loaded to the brim with these prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
My suggestion to you is to take off your OT goggles and look through the lens of fulfilment of the New Testamament in which all of the shadows and types of the Old were pointing to.
God's children are not of the flesh as you presume but of the Spirit. Not all Israel is Israel. Only those who are born again in Christ are the true seed of Abraham. I have already given you all these Scriptural references but you continue to ignore them. The only true Jew today is he who is in Christ.
Please do not call yourself a Christian if you believe you need to remain under the veil in Moses and refuse to listen to Him who prophesied of Christ.
Act_3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN. HIM YOU SHALL HEAR IN ALL THINGS, WHATEVER HE SAYS TO YOU.
Those who deny the New Covenant Christ has made and choose to live in the shadows of the Old which has passed away and is now obsolete, prove themselves to be judicially blinded by God.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
God's children are not of the flesh as you presume but of the Spirit. Not all Israel is Israel. Only those who are born again in Christ are the true seed of Abraham. I have already given you all these Scriptural references but you continue to ignore them. The only true Jew today is he who is in Christ.
Please do not call yourself a Christian if you believe you need to remain under the veil in Moses and refuse to listen to Him who prophesied of Christ.
Act_3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN. HIM YOU SHALL HEAR IN ALL THINGS, WHATEVER HE SAYS TO YOU.
Those who deny the New Covenant Christ has made and choose to live in the shadows of the Old which has passed away and is now obsolete, prove themselves to be judicially blinded by God.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
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why is it that you can not answer the simple question given to you???
Does God love those He justly casts into Hell?
God indeed is love and He loves justice so much He killed HIs own Son at the hands of evil men in order to save His people from their sin. God's grace is indeed awesome because it is sovereign, free and particular to those who He has decreed to give it to but people like you pervert God's grace by confusing God's good providence to all as being a type of grace that is common to all and in doing so you make the sacrifice of Christ a common thing and insult the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29) and in turn pervert the Gospel!
Does God love those He justly casts into Hell?
God indeed is love and He loves justice so much He killed HIs own Son at the hands of evil men in order to save His people from their sin. God's grace is indeed awesome because it is sovereign, free and particular to those who He has decreed to give it to but people like you pervert God's grace by confusing God's good providence to all as being a type of grace that is common to all and in doing so you make the sacrifice of Christ a common thing and insult the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29) and in turn pervert the Gospel!