There will be no Rapture!!!
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I have read and would require to go back several years of research to find it but when Jerusalem was being attacked Rabbinical Priests gathered the Torahs and Mikra's from the Synagogues and did not cry over when Rome took the one from the Temple because the Synagogues used the same written Hebrew Scrolls. And I read where the RCC actually have the copies that were in the 70 A.D. Temple and Sofers were allowed to compare and verify they were indeed the same Hebrew manuscripts.
I see a lot of confused people posting about a "post trib rapture"/pre wrath.
I've studied eschatology with the best pastors in the country.
I believe in dispensationalism.
I believe in EITHER a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.
Those of you that say it was invented in the 19th century by Darby, are only half correct. It was Darby that had the revelation of things spoken about.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
New International Version
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The reason for a mid-trib rapture (of only the elect, sorry luke warm-christians. You will face the great tribulation as well as being left behind.
The first 3.5 years are known as the "tribulation" where Satan and his AntiChrist cause a strong delusion, deceiving many... even Christians into taking the mark.
However, the 2nd 3.5 years are known as the "Great Tribulation." Which is when mankind will be punished by the wrath of God-the Father-himself and will punish those still on Earth for their unbelief.
I've studied eschatology with the best pastors in the country.
I believe in dispensationalism.
I believe in EITHER a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.
Those of you that say it was invented in the 19th century by Darby, are only half correct. It was Darby that had the revelation of things spoken about.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
New International Version
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The reason for a mid-trib rapture (of only the elect, sorry luke warm-christians. You will face the great tribulation as well as being left behind.
The first 3.5 years are known as the "tribulation" where Satan and his AntiChrist cause a strong delusion, deceiving many... even Christians into taking the mark.
However, the 2nd 3.5 years are known as the "Great Tribulation." Which is when mankind will be punished by the wrath of God-the Father-himself and will punish those still on Earth for their unbelief.
The reason for a mid-trib rapture (of only the elect, sorry luke warm-christians. You will face the great tribulation as well as being left behind.) is that that is when the Holy Spirit will be taken from the world and the man of sin will be revealed, the antichrist (which means "instead of", not "against.") after the 3.5 years of disbelief there will be an "abomination of desolation." where, as stated in the book of Daniel he describes the antichrist to the emperor that forced Jews to eat swine or be killed. there have been many antichrists, including Hitler. There is a "spirit of the antichrist" which many people subscribe to. It's kind of like bitcoin, the more people buy into it, the stronger it becomes. Eventually he will lose, and he will take peace from the world.
People who end up in Heaven during Tribulation:
1. Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."
2. Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
3. We know when Jesus Second Coming from Matthew when Tribulation has ENDED:
Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So ALL those people Gathered in Revelation 7 before Trumpets in chapter 8, the Beheaded in Revelation 20, and those at the Second Coming in Matthew 24 ALL EXPERIENCED PORTIONS of TRIBULATION.
So Everyone will enter into the Tribulation Period.
Pre-Wrath Tribulation is - Revelation 7:14 [These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation]
War on Saints the Beheaded just after Middle Tribulation - Revelation 20:4 [I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded]
Gathering of the Elect at the Second Coming END of Tribulation [and they will gather his elect from the four winds]
EVERYONE WILL EXPERIENCE SOME PART OF THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION
...if you are alive when it begins.
1. Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."
2. Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
3. We know when Jesus Second Coming from Matthew when Tribulation has ENDED:
Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So ALL those people Gathered in Revelation 7 before Trumpets in chapter 8, the Beheaded in Revelation 20, and those at the Second Coming in Matthew 24 ALL EXPERIENCED PORTIONS of TRIBULATION.
So Everyone will enter into the Tribulation Period.
Pre-Wrath Tribulation is - Revelation 7:14 [These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation]
War on Saints the Beheaded just after Middle Tribulation - Revelation 20:4 [I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded]
Gathering of the Elect at the Second Coming END of Tribulation [and they will gather his elect from the four winds]
EVERYONE WILL EXPERIENCE SOME PART OF THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION
...if you are alive when it begins.
So, there were copies of Hebrew script in synagogues, and it was therefore assumed that those are what was read and used, even though the populace was no longer speaking Hebrew? That's too much a stretch given what we know about the first century culture as a result of the influences of Alexander and Greek having already become the dominant language of the common people. The assumptions being drawn away from what they wrote was found in synagogues just seems too fantastic that people sitting in the first century synagogues were listening to men reading Hebrew, and translating into the common dialect of the time.
That leads to yet another outflow from such a scenario, in that each different man who allegedly read from the Hebrew tests would speak a differing version of what he had read, translating on the fly, which is known to take considerable time and study in order to ensure that they were getting as close to the original as possible.
No. What you're foisting out here to us just doesn't line up with reality, no matter what they may have stated in their writings about what they found. Where were the Greek texts? Perhaps those were more highly prized that the old Hebrew texts. I doubt you give all that any consideration, which is fine. Lots of people believe in magic and fairies, but what you're trying to perpetrate here, your conclusion, that is, just doesn't align with known reality in the process of translating.
MM
That leads to yet another outflow from such a scenario, in that each different man who allegedly read from the Hebrew tests would speak a differing version of what he had read, translating on the fly, which is known to take considerable time and study in order to ensure that they were getting as close to the original as possible.
No. What you're foisting out here to us just doesn't line up with reality, no matter what they may have stated in their writings about what they found. Where were the Greek texts? Perhaps those were more highly prized that the old Hebrew texts. I doubt you give all that any consideration, which is fine. Lots of people believe in magic and fairies, but what you're trying to perpetrate here, your conclusion, that is, just doesn't align with known reality in the process of translating.
MM
The claim to following Tanak...the oldest codex copies available, being the Leningrad Codex, dating to around 11th centuty AD, was always a prideful claim made by my ancestors who always puffed out their chests over, as if that were something to be proud of...it just all doesn't pan out!
The oldest available Hebrew texts still around today are the Masoretic texts, dating from the 9th century AD. The Septuagint Greek dates back to two to three centuries BC, and some people today rally around a much more recent set of manuscripts over and against the more ancient Greek manuscripts because of the languages...as if that absolutely defines authenticity and accuracy over the age of each. The battle cry is "Hellenized," with the scoundrel relatives of mine never admitting that the Greek language contained FAR greater precision in written language than Hebrew...
Wow, the manic adherence I observed among those relatives of mine, given the continuing stiff-necked indifference they still exhibit to this day against stacks and stacks of facts against their claims to the contrary, all I can do is sit back and observe the corrupted mixture of those ancient fairy tales intermixed with Christianity (among those of my relatives who are now Messianic), and we have a form of Christianity that is such a radical departure, and yet very much akin to the Judaizers Paul fought against with such sweat on his brow.
The confusing symphony in all this has bred a system of belief that crackles and sputters under the feet of those who walk it, with them thinking that they're on solid grounding in the midst of the known inconsistencies and harbinger departures from reality that fosters a boomerang effect that ends up whacking their own across the backs of their heads, with them looking around with a bewildering cacophony of random notes ringing in their ears that otherwise would make rats want to eat each other, very much like mosh pit heavy metal music of today.
Therein is why I find it such a blessing that we don't have to rely on this noisy roar of voices demanding attention and adherence. The Spirit of Yah is the One who gives absolute truth to those who simply ask. (1 John2:27)
MM
The oldest available Hebrew texts still around today are the Masoretic texts, dating from the 9th century AD. The Septuagint Greek dates back to two to three centuries BC, and some people today rally around a much more recent set of manuscripts over and against the more ancient Greek manuscripts because of the languages...as if that absolutely defines authenticity and accuracy over the age of each. The battle cry is "Hellenized," with the scoundrel relatives of mine never admitting that the Greek language contained FAR greater precision in written language than Hebrew...
Wow, the manic adherence I observed among those relatives of mine, given the continuing stiff-necked indifference they still exhibit to this day against stacks and stacks of facts against their claims to the contrary, all I can do is sit back and observe the corrupted mixture of those ancient fairy tales intermixed with Christianity (among those of my relatives who are now Messianic), and we have a form of Christianity that is such a radical departure, and yet very much akin to the Judaizers Paul fought against with such sweat on his brow.
The confusing symphony in all this has bred a system of belief that crackles and sputters under the feet of those who walk it, with them thinking that they're on solid grounding in the midst of the known inconsistencies and harbinger departures from reality that fosters a boomerang effect that ends up whacking their own across the backs of their heads, with them looking around with a bewildering cacophony of random notes ringing in their ears that otherwise would make rats want to eat each other, very much like mosh pit heavy metal music of today.
Therein is why I find it such a blessing that we don't have to rely on this noisy roar of voices demanding attention and adherence. The Spirit of Yah is the One who gives absolute truth to those who simply ask. (1 John2:27)
MM
How about larger font and brighter colors, that way we can all REALLY get the sense of yelling...kind of like an angry kid with crayons...
As for me, I pray the prayer Yahshuah commanded:
Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
See that? "ALL"! When Yahshuah encompassed ALL, that was a clear indicators that He was speaking of ALL that was to come in that 70th heptad! ALL means ALL, not some, not most, but ALL!
MM
As for me, I pray the prayer Yahshuah commanded:
Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
See that? "ALL"! When Yahshuah encompassed ALL, that was a clear indicators that He was speaking of ALL that was to come in that 70th heptad! ALL means ALL, not some, not most, but ALL!
MM
How about larger font and brighter colors, that way we can all REALLY get the sense of yelling...kind of like an angry kid with crayons...
As for me, I pray the prayer Yahshuah commanded:
Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
See that? "ALL"! When Yahshuah encompassed ALL, that was a clear indicators that He was speaking of ALL that was to come in that 70th heptad! ALL means ALL, not some, not most, but ALL!
MM
As for me, I pray the prayer Yahshuah commanded:
Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
See that? "ALL"! When Yahshuah encompassed ALL, that was a clear indicators that He was speaking of ALL that was to come in that 70th heptad! ALL means ALL, not some, not most, but ALL!
MM
Quote the words that Jesus said directly to future martyrs and those who would not survive 70 A.D.
AMEN!
Quote the words that Jesus said directly to future martyrs and those who would not survive 70 A.D.
Quote the words that Jesus said directly to future martyrs and those who would not survive 70 A.D.
Luke 21:25-28, 35-36
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. ...
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Where it is true that SOME of what Luke wrote deals with the period up to 70AD, but to relegate it ALL to that period, that's not an honest handling of the text.
MM
When you talk about the "uneducated" Gentiles, you're stacking that up against the arrogant and haughty Jews who think they knew more than they really do. So, making appeals to educational bias, that's not much of an argument at all.
MM
That doesn't mean that it all applied to that audience. I've seen some try to restrain the meaning to only what could possibly have been applicable to those to whom it was addressed, and that simply is not a legitimate hermeneutic. We have to be careful with this kind of stuff, because influencing others into that frame of mind is to mislead...intentionally!
MM
MM
That doesn't mean that it all applied to that audience. I've seen some try to restrain the meaning to only what could possibly have been applicable to those to whom it was addressed, and that simply is not a legitimate hermeneutic. We have to be careful with this kind of stuff, because influencing others into that frame of mind is to mislead...intentionally!
MM
This silly web-based software script is pasting other previous quotes into replies, as can be seen in the above post #2034. I did not tell it to quote the first half, but it appeared nonetheless. I've done PHP scripting, and this package on the server has either become corrupted, or there are memory hardware issues, and possibly software conflicts cropping up!
MM
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I was talking about in the day the Septuagint was written. They had the Hebrew translated because they could not read/write Hebrew and the Sofers fixed them with misinformation. It was a gaffe and is still hilarious to this day.
And once again just pointing out who was there and they all were martyred and killed by 70 A.D.
And once again just pointing out who was there and they all were martyred and killed by 70 A.D.
There's time when the page will pause when you're trying to click on the alert notice and go there. Even from this current page to get to main topic menu for this section can stall out and takes sometimes for 5 minutes to upload before timing out. I generally x out of the attempt to switch pages and go do something else and come back and by then it's working.
Yes.
But there were DISINCT conversations.
No He didn't.
It was after they came out of the temple/temple complex (when He had already [THERE] said the words about the temple being destroyed) that they had a DISTINCT convo after the disciples had a few minutes to ponder what He'd just earlier said about that (so they could question Him about it... and other [semi-related] matters).
Nope.
"the beginning of birth pangs" is ONLY IN (His words of):
--Matthew 24:4-8
--Mark 13:5-8
--Luke 21:8-11
(whereas Jesus' EARLIER words specifically about the Temple destruction--is found only in Matt24:2-3 and Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:1-6,5-6 [when they were coming out of the temple/temple-complex], AFTER WHICH WORDS they then RELOCATE [to Mt of Olives]... and is when they then ASK Him about it and other things)...
... the only place the ANSWER to the disciples' LATER (different LOCATION) question/s of Him IS RECORDED (about the 70ad events) is in Luke 21:12-24a,b (with "c" following on from that 70ad point in the chronology);
But the "70ad events" is said (by Jesus) to be [/occur] "BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs" per v.12!!
(and He does not mean "immediately before" but SEQUENTIALLY "before")
But there were DISINCT conversations.
No He didn't.
It was after they came out of the temple/temple complex (when He had already [THERE] said the words about the temple being destroyed) that they had a DISTINCT convo after the disciples had a few minutes to ponder what He'd just earlier said about that (so they could question Him about it... and other [semi-related] matters).
Nope.
"the beginning of birth pangs" is ONLY IN (His words of):
--Matthew 24:4-8
--Mark 13:5-8
--Luke 21:8-11
(whereas Jesus' EARLIER words specifically about the Temple destruction--is found only in Matt24:2-3 and Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:1-6,5-6 [when they were coming out of the temple/temple-complex], AFTER WHICH WORDS they then RELOCATE [to Mt of Olives]... and is when they then ASK Him about it and other things)...
... the only place the ANSWER to the disciples' LATER (different LOCATION) question/s of Him IS RECORDED (about the 70ad events) is in Luke 21:12-24a,b (with "c" following on from that 70ad point in the chronology);
But the "70ad events" is said (by Jesus) to be [/occur] "BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs" per v.12!!
(and He does not mean "immediately before"
but SEQUENTIALLY "before")