Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[cv5]

I get what you're going at here, but this proves nothing. How to you know hail that size didn't fall then. None of us were there to say. So while I'm not trying to act like your argument here is completely ridiculous or anything of the sort. I can honestly understand why you'd think this way, but it is in reality nothing more than opinion. We do not know that hail that size didn't fall then, it's impossible and NO grounds at all to contradict Jesus very words. In my opinion anyway.

You fail to recognize that the 7 year tribulation has two main components, both having a common purpose:

1) the salvation of vast numbers of gentile tribulation saints
2) the salvation of the nation Israel and their entering into the New Covenant as a nation

THAT is the purpose of the tribulation. Salvation.
Judgement (aka the separation of good from evil) is merely incidental.

Furthermore, the terminal event of the tribulation is (drumroll) the Second Coming.

NONE of these things happened in 70AD. So no, the tribulation did NOT occur at 70AD.

 

[Jimbone]

You fail to recognize that the 7 year tribulation has two main components, both having a common purpose:

1) the salvation of vast numbers of gentile tribulation saints
2) the salvation of the nation Israel and their entering into the New Covenant as a nation

THAT is the purpose of the tribulation. Salvation.
Judgement (aka the separation of good from evil) is merely incidental.

Furthermore, the terminal event of the tribulation is (drumroll) the Second Coming.

NONE of these things happened in 70AD. So no, the tribulation did NOT occur at 70AD.

This is a HUGE problem for your view and I'm glad you brought it up, you think the Jews are waiting for "their own salvation" to come. YOU ARE WRONG, it already came in Jesus ALL of OUR Savior. There is no plan 2 and you can NOT show me in scripture where "some are saved this way, and some that way". Yes it DID happen exactly how Jesus said it would and you've made no viable argument to refute it. Everything you think didn't happen between Him walking on earth and making our ONLY way happen, the covenant breaking Jews that yelled "Crucify Him, His blood be on us and on our children" DID fall under Gods judgement at the end of the AGE, exactly what they were talking about in Mat. 24. Just you saying I'm wrong is a bad argument, and "NO that's not true", just doesn't hold up, in my opinion. What I see is a deeply imbedded belief and tradition that you refuse to see clearly. I can't do anything about your opinion, but my case is made with Jesus words and the historical record, yours so far is built on your opinion. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but can you not see this?

 

[cv5]

This is a HUGE problem for your view and I'm glad you brought it up, you think the Jews are waiting for "their own salvation" to come. YOU ARE WRONG, it already came in Jesus ALL of OUR Savior. There is no plan 2 and you can NOT show me in scripture where "some are saved this way, and some that way". Yes it DID happen exactly how Jesus said it would and you've made no viable argument to refute it. Everything you think didn't happen between Him walking on earth and making our ONLY way happen, the covenant breaking Jews that yelled "Crucify Him, His blood be on us and on our children" DID fall under Gods judgement at the end of the AGE, exactly what they were talking about in Mat. 24. Just you saying I'm wrong is a bad argument, and "NO that's not true", just doesn't hold up, in my opinion. What I see is a deeply imbedded belief and tradition that you refuse to see clearly. I can't do anything about your opinion, but my case is made with Jesus words and the historical record, yours so far is built on your opinion. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but can you not see this?

The 7 year tribulation culminates with the Second Coming. And EVERYONE will see this!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 7 year tribulation culminates with the Second Coming. And EVERYONE will see this!

Right.







And the KEY PHRASE (many miss) in His Olivet Discourse, informing of the "chronology" of things, is found in Luke 21:12:

"12 BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [before all these beginning of birth pangs (from vv.8-11)]..."

 

[Inquisitor]

You fail to recognize that the 7 year tribulation has two main components, both having a common purpose:

1) the salvation of vast numbers of gentile tribulation saints
2) the salvation of the nation Israel and their entering into the New Covenant as a nation

THAT is the purpose of the tribulation. Salvation.
Judgement (aka the separation of good from evil) is merely incidental.

Furthermore, the terminal event of the tribulation is (drumroll) the Second Coming.

NONE of these things happened in 70AD. So no, the tribulation did NOT occur at 70AD.

Perhaps the tribulation did occur for Israel in AD 70 (Luke 21).

The Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant and was cancelled because of Israel's
behavior. After all, Israel did, in fact, reject and crucify their own promised messiah. The
messiah was the fulfillment of all the law had promised. The perfect high priest, the perfect
lamb sacrificed by the high priest for atonement, every year. The fulfillment of all the moral law.

Israel did lose the territory God had promised in the old covenant.

The house of Israel was left to them desolate.

The olive tree had not produced the covenant fruit.

The temple was destroyed in AD 70 and Jerusalem was desolate.

The desolation was visible to all that stood in the most holy place.

 

[cv5]

Perhaps the tribulation did occur for Israel in AD 70 (Luke 21).

The Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant and was cancelled because of Israel's
behavior. After all, Israel did, in fact, reject and crucify their own promised messiah. The
messiah was the fulfillment of all the law had promised. The perfect high priest, the perfect
lamb sacrificed by the high priest for atonement, every year. The fulfillment of all the moral law.

Israel did lose the territory God had promised in the old covenant.

The house of Israel was left to them desolate.

The olive tree had not produced the covenant fruit.

The temple was destroyed in AD 70 and Jerusalem was desolate.

The desolation was visible to all that stood in the most holy place.

I don't remember hearing about huge wars with demon armies anywhere in Jewish recorded history.

And of course, everybody knows that this did not occur either:

Rev 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6
And in those days [THOSE FIVE MONTHS] shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

God suspends death for five months (while they are in torments of pain - this occurring BEFORE the mark of the beast is imposed) as a MERCY to the earth dwellers. Why? So that they recognize the dire implications of this:

Rev 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Eternal torment in the lake of fire. The five months where death is suspended is a FORETASTE of existence in the lake of fire.
These five months are a dire warning by God Who can suspend death itself as He desires.

And yes, I take this literally......because I actually understand the book of Revelation, what is going on, when and WHY.

 

[maxamir]

Here is what YOU do not understand ... God's anger at mankind for sin has been expended, fully expended at the cross, God has suspended the time for the final judgement of sin, He has appointed a day.

We are living in the epoch of God's grace.

John [my Strict and Particular friend] taught that Christ is the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world. He was slain for our sin and not for our sins only but the sins of the whole world.

God could not have poured out His Spirit upon all flesh if this were not so, He would have to slay man wholesale as soon as sin entered His presence.

We are not sent to announce damnation to any, we are sent to announce the good news. We don't have any bad news. What will become of folks who hearing of God's grace reject it is between themselves and God. We faithfully warn them of the judgement to come and the eternal punishment of the wicked.

But our only commission is to announce the good news.

You fail to realise that the good news includes that God is perfectly good in His holy justice which is the foundation of the cross and not mercy which is only given because justice is satisfied in Christ who laid down His life for His sheep and not the goats.

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and efficient only for those He draws unto Himself by grace alone through faith alone. His sheep come from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues throughout the whole world without distinction and not every person without exception as you seem to assume.

It was only at the cross where Christ propitiated the sins of His people and rose form the dead for their justification but the reason He is coming again includes His good judgement against the rest of the sins of this world which were not paid for at the cross which is what Paul preached to the Athenians.

Act 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

The good news of the Gospel involves lovingly telling people that salvation has been secured in Christ for those He has chosen and warning them of the repercussions of dying in their sin without His indescribable gift as did John the Baptist below.

Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[maxamir]

Paul's message is unlimited grace, "I would Agrippa that all men would become as I am yet without these chains"

It should be the desire of every Christian to love all and therefore also desire for all to be saved but the Scriptures reveal this is not the will of God who alone knows all He loves and has chosen to save. Christians do not know who God has chosen and therefore are called to reflect the love shown to them even while they were enemies of God to all even those who are their enemies.

Grace is particular only to those who are saved and is not to be confused with God's good providence to all which only serves to make the wicked more accountable unto their greater judgement.

 

[maxamir]

you nor Jonathan Edwards awoke one morning saved ... salvation doesn't happen that way.

you are right, God uses the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant saving faith to His people who humbly recognise that the faith given to them through which they are saved is a gift of God's grace and not something in which they can boast.

 

[maxamir]

Calling yourself blessed because you think you are being persecuted?

I am blessed not because of who I am or anything I have done or because I am persecuted but because Christ has chosen to have mercy upon a sinful wretch such as I and has given me of His Holy Spirit which bears witness with my spirit that I am a chid of God and guaranteed to suffer persecution this side of eternity at His will and for His greater glory.

2Ti_3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

@maxamir : So brother, do you know if you have been saved?!

 

[maxamir]

nowhere in scripture is a limited atonement taught, the only place God's mercy is limited is where merciless persons are warned that they will receive no mercy.

Predestiny and election pertain to the church, the body of Christ ... it prevents nobody from being saved.

Please read John 10 where Christ declares He lays down His life for His sheep and then confirms that some were not His sheep.

Everyone limits Christs atonement. The Scriptures limit it in scope but it seems like you limit in sufficiency.

The Scriptures declare that Christ gave His life as a ransom for all but Christ Himself said that He gave His life as a ransom for many. Logically, all can not mean every single person without exception because many does not mean all and therefore it can only be concluded that Christ gave His life as a ransom for all of the many which are His elect.

1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Mat_20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Mar_10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Therefore, people should not be asked if they have chosen God but whether God has chosen them for it is the doctrine of predestination which limits salvation to those He has chosen that most humbles man and puts the fear of God into him.

Those who die in their sin will know for all eternity that God never chose them and instead eternally and justly hated them.

 

[maxamir]

There are the bookends. The middle says the same.

Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Rev 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I find it amazing that you consistently respond to my posts which have many Scriptures with a large red X, obviously symbolising your hatred of the Scriptures which have been quoted. You would do well to search your heart for having such an attitude and if you disagree then the onus is on you to use Scripture to correct what you feel is wrong.

Adam before sin was indeed told to freely eat of whatever God had given to him and the grace of God which can not be bought is indeed free to those for whom Christ died and to whom He freely gives eternal life but to say that man after the Fall is free to choose God when he is a cursed slave to sin and Satan who hates God by his very nature is absurd.

I expect many red crosses on the below meme.

 

[maxamir]

I read chapter one as you suggested but Paul commences his narration in chapter two, verse seventeen.

Chapter one is the standard declaration of the sinful state of mankind.

Chapter two is the start of Paul's rebuke and education of the Jews in Rome.

From Romans 2:17 through to Romans 11:36, only then will you have the correct context.

When you understand what Paul is actually talking about in Romans. Then you can stop quoting
those verses out of the given context.

the book of Romans is the greatest exposition of the Gospel in which the righteousness of God is revealed against the evil of sinful man for the salvation of those God loves in Christ who are circumcised of heart and not of the flesh.

 

[maxamir]

It's not so much deception that you are guilty of, rather, it is ignoring the context.
The context matters and your not the only one who does that.

We were never told to proclaim the whole counsel of God.

We were told to proclaim the Christ, that is the gospel. Jesus Christ crucified,
buried, and risen on the third day. The reconciliation performed by Jesus Christ for us.

You have an obsession with the full counsel of God?

Please note, the full counsel of God cannot save anyone.

Here is the gospel again.

Romans 10:9-13
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person
believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting
in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all,
abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Everyone who calls on the name of
the Lord will be saved.”

It is only those who are saved that have such a confession. Confession itself does not save anyone for many called Christ Lord and were not saved because they did not know who Christ is and thought that He was altogether like themselves which is why Paul said he was innocent of the blood of all men for he did not shun to proclaim the whole counsel of God which means all of God's Word regarding who God is for God is glorified when His holy name and all of His glorious attributes are made known to His creatures.

Man is only granted to see who he truly is by the Holy Spirit when he is brought before the awful majesty of God as proclaimed in the Gospel and granted to see his desperate need of grace which is only found in Christ.

The reason why so few today are born again is because they are false converts of a perverted gospel which can not save anyone. They are not bought to wits end to cry out to Him for grace to obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on Christ because they think they are good when compared to others and assume that God who created the eye somehow does not see them or their deeds and interpret His patience as somehow He not requiring justice against them.

You would do well to contemplate the meaning of the verse and article below.

Ecc 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Another Gospel by Arthur W. Pink

 

[maxamir]

Yes He did.

Then according to you, Christ failed and was unable to save those who are now in Hell.

What did Christ mean when He said "It is finished"?

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Then according to you, Christ failed and was unable to save those who are now in Hell.

What did Christ mean when He said "It is finished"?

Didn't that mean that he was about to die on The Cross?

 

[maxamir]

@maxamir : So brother, do you know if you have been saved?!

Yes, not because of who I am or anything I have done but solely because He has revealed to me by the Holy Spirit who He is and what He has done for me to make me His child and a new creature confirmed in His promises to me.

1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

[maxamir]

Didn't that mean that he was about to die on The Cross?

It meant that He had fully satisfied the wrath of God for His people and paid the wages of their sin which is the death that He prophesied He would die for them and His resurrection to give then life.

Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Yes, not because of who I am or anything I have done but solely because He has revealed to me by the Holy Spirit who He is and what He has done for me to make me His child and a new creature confirmed in His promises to me.

1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I see, but then do you think I've been saved?