Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"
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Paul does not teach that the church has replaced Israel. Paul teaches that we have been grafted into THEIR olive, if you take away the Jews then to whose olive are you grafted in?
Again Paul teaches that we have become fellow citizens of THEIR commonwealth, co-inheritors of THEIR promises contained in covenants. If you take away the Jews then where is our commonwealth?
The only covenants God has made has been with the Jews.
Again Paul teaches that we have become fellow citizens of THEIR commonwealth, co-inheritors of THEIR promises contained in covenants. If you take away the Jews then where is our commonwealth?
The only covenants God has made has been with the Jews.
It is "Fulfillment Theology."
God completely fulfilled His promises to Abraham in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16). Therefore, Gentile believers have been grafted into the original Olive Tree--the commonwealth of Israel that first accepted the Seed of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:17)--and now there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11)
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Just so you know that the interpretation of "dead" is wrong.
Like saying a dead man can't do anything.
The gospel is not for dead people.
We do not go to cemeteries and preach the gospel. The gospel is for alive men that can simply hear someone share the good news of the gospel and simply believe and be saved.
Like saying a dead man can't do anything.
The gospel is not for dead people.
We do not go to cemeteries and preach the gospel. The gospel is for alive men that can simply hear someone share the good news of the gospel and simply believe and be saved.
In the case of Calvinist usage, scripture verses are frequently “cherry-picked” out of context, and forced through the interpretive-lens of “universal divine determinism”, which is the cornerstone of Augustinian theology, and which Calvin adored, systematized, and codified.
Calvinist scripture usage typically takes the form:
A: Extravagant claims that the bible demands their interpretations.
B: When the Calvinist interpretation is followed to its logical conclusion it is found to be self-contradicting and supported only by highly evolved sophistry. Under expert scrutiny, the Calvinist is forced to fall back on the “Inscrutable” argument.
Unfortunately, in this work, the author supplies even less exegetical precision.
(anonymous)
Just wondering does God ever condemn people in scripture for thinking, recognizing their depravity, being persuaded and making the right choice, the choice which HE has offered to them and wants them to make?
Is this God you describe have such a "fragile ego" that He cannot stand having those He created be persuaded and choose Him?
Instead what you offer is "Poof" conversion, I was completely unaware. I did nothing.
Is that how you evangelize "All ye who want to be saved in this life and the next ask for "poof."
Wait God does not hear the prayers of the unregenerate, such a quandary.
"God is not willing that any should perish" ... seems clear that if we did not have will, we would ALL be saved.
They can KNOW when they are truly saved, but can be deceived into thinking they are when they are not.
They may not know they are a false convert. Cameron is 100% right here. You asked if someone can " If someone comes forward and says they want to be saved. So we pray together, and they confess they are a sinner in need of Jesus as their Savior and they ask Him to come into their heart, you're saying they are not saved??
The answer is Yes! they can do all that and even think they are sincere when doling so, and NOT be saved. I did. I "felt it in my heart" at an alter call, went up front and repeated the prayer you're talking about, and was told to write down that date, I was saved. Even went a few weeks later to get baptized. I was not saved. So yes you can do what you said and NOT be saved. A prayer does not save us, our "decision" does not save us. ONLY God can save us.
That's why when I was saved, I did none of this. I was deceived into thinking I had already tried that "Christian thing", so when I hit my knees in the repentance God granted me I didn't recite a prayer, nor did I even call out for God or consider Him at all in this moment, when I hit my knees I knew and said 1 thing and 1 thing alone. "I can't do this anymore". I saw myself in all the glory we have in and of ourselves, I saw my self in truth, as powerless and pathetic as I truly was.
Look, I understand what you mean when you say what you're saying, and in theory what you say is sound. I'm not trying to act like what you are saying is wrong and you need to be corrected. I am just trying to share with you that doing that may be how God saves you, and I am in know way trying to suggest that we shouldn't always be trying to point others to the King and true reconciliation with our Creator. I am trying to point out that we can not guarantee people that once they say these certain words they are born again. That's just not true and we have to submit our way to Him completely, and this isn't a small easy thing to teach or do. Only His Spirit can do it and we have to be very mindful of that at all times.
They may not know they are a false convert. Cameron is 100% right here. You asked if someone can " If someone comes forward and says they want to be saved. So we pray together, and they confess they are a sinner in need of Jesus as their Savior and they ask Him to come into their heart, you're saying they are not saved??
The answer is Yes! they can do all that and even think they are sincere when doling so, and NOT be saved. I did. I "felt it in my heart" at an alter call, went up front and repeated the prayer you're talking about, and was told to write down that date, I was saved. Even went a few weeks later to get baptized. I was not saved. So yes you can do what you said and NOT be saved. A prayer does not save us, our "decision" does not save us. ONLY God can save us.
That's why when I was saved, I did none of this. I was deceived into thinking I had already tried that "Christian thing", so when I hit my knees in the repentance God granted me I didn't recite a prayer, nor did I even call out for God or consider Him at all in this moment, when I hit my knees I knew and said 1 thing and 1 thing alone. "I can't do this anymore". I saw myself in all the glory we have in and of ourselves, I saw my self in truth, as powerless and pathetic as I truly was.
Look, I understand what you mean when you say what you're saying, and in theory what you say is sound. I'm not trying to act like what you are saying is wrong and you need to be corrected. I am just trying to share with you that doing that may be how God saves you, and I am in know way trying to suggest that we shouldn't always be trying to point others to the King and true reconciliation with our Creator. I am trying to point out that we can not guarantee people that once they say these certain words they are born again. That's just not true and we have to submit our way to Him completely, and this isn't a small easy thing to teach or do. Only His Spirit can do it and we have to be very mindful of that at all times.
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The devil has taken them captive to his will. From this condition of being in bondage to sin,
some believe they are free to choose, without the help of God, to choose to believe in God.
It does seem very odd indeed that to affirm the Scriptural truths put forth
about the natural man, we are then falsely accused of all manner of things...
some believe they are free to choose, without the help of God, to choose to believe in God.
It does seem very odd indeed that to affirm the Scriptural truths put forth
about the natural man, we are then falsely accused of all manner of things...
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I love my dental team! They take such good care of me .
I guess I have a team after all.
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Clearly there must be some explanation for their extreme confusion. In some cases at least, I suspect pride to be the root, and this is founded on their own claims which plainly suggest they needed no help from God in coming to believe, despite the clear teaching of Scripture to the contrary. Then there are those who confuse the heart's circumcision to mean people are being forced to believe. Somehow in their minds when we speak of this necessary Spiritual phenomenon, people are being kidnapped against their will. This Spiritual phenomenon which allows a person to repent and come to believe is then falsely characterized as making God's offer of salvation a hoax, and God's offer of repentance fraudulent, when the opposite is very much true of such. Well, I am not surprised at all that these things should be said by those who say them, and those who agree with them. That they further compound their falsity by claiming we think that Holy God is a scheming tyrant, unjust judge, kidnapper with wholly nefarious attributes is again hardly surprising given the reprehensible nature of him who said it. The level of ignorance in their responses to what we say makes me wonder just how much of Scripture they actually do understand... and I do agree with your assessment also, that their comprehension of what is entailed in the state of the natural man falls far short of what the Bible has to say on the matter.
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I would say, and it solely depends upon your perception of Calvin's teachings, that from my own experience learning from other Calvinist's it's a standard belief that God gave you no choice in the matter whether or not you would become one of His.
I tend to go by God's Own words myself.
Jesus' words:
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Jesus said, only the Jews are deafened right now to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah.
But we know today it's the GENTILES who are the ones hearing and rejecting.
Do you notice something about Jesus' words here?
No mention of natural man and spiritual man.
It's simply they hear, they accept, they reject.
So hearing the Gospel has no bearing to the natural man because Jesus said they will HEAR.
And then they will choose either to Accept or Reject.
This is why I say HEARING the GOSPEL and the condition of natural man cannot be linked together.
When people link it together it GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE WORDS OF JESUS/GOD.
.......
Therefore, I believe God presented His words to me when I heard the Gospel and like verses 14, 16, and 48 point out I was able on my own ability to choose whether I accepted them or rejected them. Not that I was forced into doing something I had no choice in the matter.
I believe you are saved.
I believe I am saved.
It's just a mere difference in how we believe we got saved is all
I tend to go by God's Own words myself.
Jesus' words:
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Jesus said, only the Jews are deafened right now to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah.
But we know today it's the GENTILES who are the ones hearing and rejecting.
Do you notice something about Jesus' words here?
No mention of natural man and spiritual man.
It's simply they hear, they accept, they reject.
So hearing the Gospel has no bearing to the natural man because Jesus said they will HEAR.
And then they will choose either to Accept or Reject.
This is why I say HEARING the GOSPEL and the condition of natural man cannot be linked together.
When people link it together it GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE WORDS OF JESUS/GOD.
.......
Therefore, I believe God presented His words to me when I heard the Gospel and like verses 14, 16, and 48 point out I was able on my own ability to choose whether I accepted them or rejected them. Not that I was forced into doing something I had no choice in the matter.
I believe you are saved.
I believe I am saved.
It's just a mere difference in how we believe we got saved is all
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Jesus said we can hear to reject or accept.
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
^
There's literally not a single mention about our ears needing to be circumcised to hear.
But even if we go that route, Jesus said when people hear they are able to reject or accept. Which means, ears that have been opened/circumcised can still reject the Gospel.
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
^
There's literally not a single mention about our ears needing to be circumcised to hear.
But even if we go that route, Jesus said when people hear they are able to reject or accept. Which means, ears that have been opened/circumcised can still reject the Gospel.
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