Ah, yes, shame. Did I say shame was not mentioned? No, I did not. Guilt is not mentioned. Not even in the verses you cite trying to prove your point, while avoiding the very salient fact that guilt is not mentioned.
You are of course free to assume they felt guilt. That you refuse to admit guilt is
not mentioned in the account of Adam and Eve speaks poorly of your character.
The texts you provide are just more deflections and avoidance.
No surprises there.
Let's look at how the discussion ran to this point.
Cameron143 said:
What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?
Cameron143 said:
I asked you a question. You don't answer my question which was designed to answer your return questions. So if you will, please answer my question and we can begin to answer your questions.
What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?
PaulThomson said:
Adam and Eve experienced guilt and shame and so came a sense of distance between them and the holy One.
Magenta said:
Where does
it say Adam and Eve felt guilt?
PaulThomson said:
Before they sinned they were naked and not ashamed. After sinning they covered their nakedness
and blamed others. What do you think that means. They developed a fashion sense?
Magenta said:
So no text saying Adam and Eve felt guilt. Thanks.
And I know how very much you hate to admit that you do that...
PaulThomson said:
Did Jesus not bear our guilt and our shame on the cross? Why would he do that if we do not experience guilt and shame from our sin?
Prov. 11:2 When pride comes, then comes
shame; but with the lowly is wisdom.
Prov. 13:18 Poverty and
shame shall be to him that refuses instruction, but he that regards reproof shall be honoured.
Rom. 5:16 for the judgment was by one (Adam) to
condemnation...
Magenta said:
Does not answer my question. Where does
the text say Adam and Eve felt guilt?
Or, instead of deflecting, you could just admit the text does not say that they did.
Of course that would also show another instance where you go beyond what the text says.
Magenta said:
I don't understand why people cannot admit when
the text does not explicitly say something.
Especially after that same person has wished others would stick to what Scripture explicitly states.
But that is an issue also, isn't it? People don't want to see their hypocrisy. Jesus addressed that also.
PaulThomson said:
I gave three verses. I have yet to see you explain how Adam and Eve are excluded from being subject to what those verses say. You seem to think Genesis 3 must say the specific words "Adam and Eve felt guilt and shame after eating the fruit" for the Bible to be saying "Adam and Eve felt guilt and shame after eating the fruit."
Prov. 11:2 When pride comes, then comes
shame; but with the lowly is wisdom.
Prov. 13:18 Poverty and
shame shall be to him that refuses instruction, but he that regards reproof shall be honoured.
Rom. 5:16 for the judgment was by one (Adam) to
condemnation.
You seem to be hiding behind ad hominem to avoid responding to the biblical texts.
Ah, yes, shame. Did I say shame was not mentioned? No, I did not. Guilt is not mentioned. Not even in the verses you cite trying to prove your point, while avoiding the very salient fact that guilt is not mentioned.
You are of course free to assume they felt guilt. That you refuse to admit guilt is
not mentioned in the account of Adam and Eve speaks poorly of your character.
The texts you provide are just more deflections and avoidance.
No surprises there.
Yes. The text of Gen. 3 does not specifically say that Adam and Eve felt guilt and shame. My assertion of guilt and shame was in response to Cameron's question, "What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?"
If a direct answer to that specific question is in the text of Gen. 3, no one has pointed to it yet. When we exegete a text, we START with what the text actually says. I have never said that we should only infer from a verse what the verse itself actually says.
We THEN ask questions related to the text, such as Cameron's question. If the answer is not directly stated in the text itself, we look at the immediate context of the chapter, book, and Bible to see if there is something elsewhere that sheds light on the question re the text being studied. Do you have an answer to Cameron's question that you can lift directly from Genesis chapter 3? If not, is there some scripture that seem to mesh with Gen. 3 that would suggest an answer Cameron's question?
I cited three verses elsewhere that seem to apply to the evidence of Adam's and Eve's behaviour described in Gen. 3. Rather than agree or disagree with my application of those texts to Gen. 3 in order to better understand what the Bible is saying, you chose to ignore them and focus on trying to discredit the person citing them, in the hope that other posters would dismiss my verses because I'm a hypocrite and so whatever I say in this forum need not be taken seriously. That is ad hominem argument, and is a logical fallacy. It is a rhetorical device people use to persuade poor critical thinkers towards accepting one's own view. It is not a tactic people who want to arrive at the truth of a matter use. A seeker of truth might address the verses as they relate to Gen. 3 as well as attempt to prove their interlocutors hypocrisy with evidence, but they would not ONLY seek to prove their opponent's hypocrisy while avoiding addressing the evidence put forward.
Does their being naked and NOT ASHAMED, but then noticing their nakedness and covering it over, indicate to you any specific change in Adam's and Eve's opinion of themselves? If so, what changed?
Does Adam and Eve blaming others others indicate to you that they felt guilt? If not, to what do you attribute that behaviour by them after they had sinned?
Does Proverbs link rejecting instruction with shame? Does proverbs link rejecting insr=truction with pride? Does Proverbs link pride with shame? If so, do you yhink this has any bearing on events in Gen. 3
If Adam's transgression led to his condemnation according to Rom. 5, and God condemns and sentences the guilty, and Adam and Eve hid from God and then blamed others for their sin, do you see any possibility that Adam and Eve did not at all feel guilty?
Now we will see if you are you interested in discovering God's truth, or merely in defending your present thologicl opinions come hell or high water.
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