Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#6,341
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
#6,341
Magenta said:
It does seem from this answer that you are agreeing with the fact that God moves first... that God must move first...
Click to expand...
Who sent the preacher to the sinner BEFORE the sinner heard the gospel from the preacher?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,342
Mar 1, 2022
19,213
6,608
113
62
#6,342
rogerg said:
Jesus laid down His life and paid for sins, but only those of His sheep - the elect's- not everyone's.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep


[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The same with believing - only His sheep will truly believe

[Jhn 10:26 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They only enter in by Him.

[Jhn 10:3, 9 KJV]
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. ...
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Click to expand...
I agree. There are many who believe Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind in all times. This seems to be a reasonable claim given John 3:16. So I asked the question if there were people in hell whose sins are paid for. Being sovereign, God can do this. But can He do so and remain just? And I don't believe so. It is just for a holy God to demand payment for sin. But I don't believe it is just of God, or anyone else, to receive and accept payment and still require further payment. Since I believe God is just, I believe as you do.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

Active member
#6,343
Dec 20, 2023
404
173
43
Texas
#6,343
PaulThomson said:
BillyBob logic: Someone who is granted to enter paradise must be forgiven. Therefore someone who is not granted to enter paradise must not be forgiven.

Negative inference fallacy... again. Calvinists never stop falling into that one.
Click to expand...
That's exactly why I added a disclaimer to my posts!
 
M

MerSee

Active member
#6,344
Jan 13, 2024
796
119
43
#6,344
PaulThomson said:
BillyBob logic: Someone who is granted to enter paradise must be forgiven. Therefore someone who is not granted to enter paradise must not be forgiven.

Negative inference fallacy... again. Calvinists never stop falling into that one.
Click to expand...
Do you believe only the elect go to heaven?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#6,345
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#6,345
Magenta said:
It wasn't entirely clear because you said it is the gospel that opens the ears, not the Holy Spirit of God... and that after the ears open, then the Spirit can convict. I could be wrong but I believe people can feel conviction over sin before their ears/heart/mind are entirely open to understanding and accepting the gospel.
Click to expand...
Do you know that most people visit a church because of family and friends have not only invited them but shared their Testimony. By sharing our testimony we are unveiling the Gospel of Jesus to them. We always say in our testimony that God Saved us and it was because of Jesus. Right then and there the Holy Spirit begins working on them. Generally, by the time they enter a Church Building, listen to the Sermon preached, God has been breaking them down. And most of the time, well before the Altar Call is given, they are jumping out of their skin to have Jesus. The Gospel comes in so many formats. By Preaching the Gospel, Teaching the Gospel, sharing our Testimony. And the moment they begin to listen and their ears are opened, the Holy Spirit is convicting them.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,346
Mar 1, 2022
19,213
6,608
113
62
#6,346
BillyBob said:
We need to look no further than the cross itself!

Luke 23
42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Only one of the two criminals was forgiven!
Click to expand...
Again, I agree. I didn't ask the question because I was struggling for an answer. I asked it to open up others within their own assumptions, ie...what are the logical implications of what they profess.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#6,347
Jul 3, 2015
60,166
29,467
113
#6,347
Cameron143 said:
I agree. There are many who believe Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind in all times. This seems to be a reasonable claim given John 3:16. So I asked the question if there were people in hell whose sins are paid for. Being sovereign, God can do this. But can He do so and remain just? And I don't believe so. It is just for a holy God to demand payment for sin. But I don't believe it is just of God, or anyone else, to receive and accept payment and still require further payment. Since I believe God is just, I believe as you do.
Click to expand...
It isn't unfair or unjust when Scripture is clear that Jesus's sacrifice is efficacious only unto those who believe. It is just plain foolishness for unbelievers to expect God to allow them into His house when they won't even acknowledge that He exists.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#6,348
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#6,348
Magenta said:
It does seem from this answer that you are agreeing with the fact that God moves first... that God must move first...
Click to expand...
God moves first in the Believer. The Believer is talking to anyone who will hear. I have witnessed and just made up my mind first person I see I am going to say, do you know who Jesus is? God is working in me first before anything else. I am the one listening to God and creating the Divine appointment.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#6,349
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
#6,349
rogerg said:
Jesus laid down His life and paid for sins, but only those of His sheep - the elect's- not everyone's.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep


[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The same with believing - only His sheep will truly believe

[Jhn 10:26 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They only enter in by Him.

[Jhn 10:3, 9 KJV]
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. ...
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Click to expand...
John 10:15 says "I lay down my life for THE SHEEP." Not "MY SHEEP."
John 10:3 indicates that THE SHEPHERD leads out HIS OWN SHEEP, but there are other sheep of other shepherds. "MY sheep" are therefore a subset of "the sheep".

So, your assumption that "the sheep" in verse 10:15 are the "My sheep" of vv. 14, 27, and 26, and the"His own sheep" of v. 3 is not a given.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#6,350
Jul 3, 2015
60,166
29,467
113
#6,350
FollowerofShiloh said:
Do you know that most people visit a church because of family and friends have not only invited them but shared their Testimony. By sharing our testimony we are unveiling the Gospel of Jesus to them. We always say in our testimony that God Saved us and it was because of Jesus. Right then and there the Holy Spirit begins working on them. Generally, by the time they enter a Church Building, listen to the Sermon preached, God has been breaking them down. And most of the time, well before the Altar Call is given, they are jumping out of their skin to have Jesus. The Gospel comes in so many formats. By Preaching the Gospel, Teaching the Gospel, sharing our Testimony. And the moment they begin to listen and their ears are opened, the Holy Spirit is convicting them.
Click to expand...
Still sounds like you are agreeing with God moving first...
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#6,351
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#6,351
Magenta said:
Still sounds like you are agreeing with God moving first...
Click to expand...
God does move first. He moves in the Believer to be the VOICE that shares the Gospel to anyone they can find.

Look at the Prophets.
They did not single anyone out.
They arrived and began preaching to everyone walking by near them around the vicinity.

That is how God makes the First Move.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#6,352
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
#6,352
Magenta said:
It isn't unfair or unjust when Scripture is clear that Jesus's sacrifice is efficacious only unto those who believe. It is just plain foolishness for unbelievers to expect God to allow them into His house when they won't even acknowledge that He exists.
Click to expand...
You are assuming that entrance into the kingdom depends on sins being forgiven means that exclusion from the kingdom depends on sins being not forgiven. That is the negative inference fallacy. Entrance depends on putting faith in Christ because He forgave my sins. Exclusion is because I refuse to put my faith in Christ even though He paid for my sins..
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#6,353
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#6,353
Jesus said, GO, make Disciples.

That means GO and tell everyone you see.

They [we Believers] make the first move and INVADE sinners.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,355
Mar 1, 2022
19,213
6,608
113
62
#6,355
Magenta said:
It isn't unfair or unjust when Scripture is clear that Jesus's sacrifice is efficacious only unto those who believe. It is just plain foolishness for unbelievers to expect God to allow them into His house when they won't even acknowledge that He exists.
Click to expand...
While I agree this is so, the question wasn't dealing with efficacy, but inclusion.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,356
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#6,356
PaulThomson said:
John 10:15 says "I lay down my life for THE SHEEP." Not "MY SHEEP."
John 10:3 indicates that THE SHEPHERD leads out HIS OWN SHEEP, but there are other sheep of other shepherds. "MY sheep" are therefore a subset of "the sheep".

So, your assumption that "the sheep" in verse 10:15 are the "My sheep" of vv. 14, 27, and 26, and the"His own sheep" of v. 3 is not a given.
Click to expand...
You're groping. It is obvious based upon the verse preceding it, and other supplied verses, that they are Christ's sheep.
Anyway, maybe this will be clearer to you.

[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#6,357
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
#6,357
Cameron143 said:
I agree. There are many who believe Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind in all times. This seems to be a reasonable claim given John 3:16. So I asked the question if there were people in hell whose sins are paid for. Being sovereign, God can do this. But can He do so and remain just? And I don't believe so. It is just for a holy God to demand payment for sin. But I don't believe it is just of God, or anyone else, to receive and accept payment and still require further payment. Since I believe God is just, I believe as you do.
Click to expand...
Whatever happened to "My ways are higher than your ways"? What happened to mercy triumphs over judgment? What happened to "I will show mercy to whom I am willing show mercy; and I will have compassion upon whom I am willing to have compassion"?

Now God's ways must conform to your opinion of how His justice should work?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#6,358
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
#6,358
rogerg said:
You're groping. It is obvious based upon the verse preceding it, and other supplied verses, that they are Christ's sheep.
Anyway, maybe this will be clearer to you.

[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Click to expand...
No. You are isolating scripture (vv 27-28) which does not use the term "the sheep" and demanding that it be understood as referring back to "the sheep" of 10:15. which occurs 12 verses earlier.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#6,359
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#6,359
PaulThomson said:
John 10:15 says "I lay down my life for THE SHEEP." Not "MY SHEEP."
John 10:3 indicates that THE SHEPHERD leads out HIS OWN SHEEP, but there are other sheep of other shepherds. "MY sheep" are therefore a subset of "the sheep".

So, your assumption that "the sheep" in verse 10:15 are the "My sheep" of vv. 14, 27, and 26, and the"His own sheep" of v. 3 is not a given.
Click to expand...

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.