Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

More scripture...Matthew 13:10-17...it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...but to them it is not given...
At any rate, you will put some spin on this. There are some people it is just not edifying to chat with. Blessings.

Yes, a Scripture about parables that you previously suggested is all our Lord gave to people. But He actually began teaching like this at a point after having been rejected by many.

One of us is practiced in spin and ad hominem (aka weak argument). Do you see spin in my above post looking at your unreferenced Scripture in context to see if your opinions - aka spin - could be proven?

When all we seek is agreement to our opinions for edification it's no wonder that we flee when actual Scripture in context is suggested as our only point of meaningful agreement.

 

[Cameron143]

It seems like the word desire must be included. In other words, "We act upon the perception of our understanding and desire".
The desire part comes when we receive a new heart. Then we have the desire to obey!

I don't disagree with this, and the circumcision of the heart is foundational to salvation. I believe it is what Jesus is referring to in Matthew 13:11 that allows for the knowing of the mysteries of the kingdom.

 

[studier]

NKJ Matthew 13:10-17 1And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 "for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.


Their hearts had grown dull.
Their ears are hearing with difficulty.
They have closed their eyes. Active voice verb. They are doing this. And this is pivotal.
If they'd open their eyes they could see > their ears could hear > their hearts could understand > they would turn > and Jesus would heal them.

They didn't need a new heart. They needed to open their eyes and see what was in front of them as others had. The time had come that many prophets and righteous men had desired to see & hear, but but did not see and hear it because it was not God's timing.

The ones who did not close their eyes and the many before them who desired to see and hear, stand as a witness against these with the dull hearts and closed eyes.

Jesus had given all in Israel many chances. The signs He did per John's Gospel that GJohn is written to inform of are said to be signs that Israel was to know could only be done by Messiah. At some point He in essence said 'enough' and He began to teach in parables so whatever the ones who were closing their eyes had, would be taken from them.

At this point I'd consider dull hearts becoming hardened.

 

[Magenta]

I did use scripture.

Hey Cameron, just checking, but can you think of any covenant that was instituted using rape as a promise... as we are now being told rape can be fairly compared to circumcision Biblically? Circumcision which was instituted as a sign of a covenant between Israel and God, and foreshadows the circumcision of the heart we all receive at some point being placed in Christ? @BillyBob perhaps you could weigh in on this also...

 

[studier]

Hey Cameron, just checking, but can you think of any covenant that was instituted using rape as a promise..

Quite fixated.

as we are now being told rape can be fairly compared to circumcision Biblically?

Mischaracterization. Look up the red herring fallacy among a few others.

Hey Cameron,

@BillyBob perhaps you could weigh in on this also...

Appeals to the people. More fallacious argumentation.


Why don't you just ask @FollowerofShiloh to change or better explain his statement? He also said something about kidnapping. That apparently didn't offend you as severely. Understandable.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
Several comments have been made that some believe God just chose them to be saved and they had no say in the matter. They were born and one day God just said whether you want to be or not I am making you to be saved.

I read that literally nowhere in the Bible.

And since it is nowhere in the Bible and such a fallacy I chose to give it an equally absurd name.

 

[Magenta]

Quite fixated.

Mischaracterization. Look up the red herring fallacy among a few others.

Appeals to the people. More fallacious argumentation.

Why don't you just ask @FollowerofShiloh to change or better explain his statement? He also said something about kidnapping. That apparently didn't offend you as severely. Understandable.

So now trying to establish Biblical truth is being fixated is it? Wow. Do you use that word to describe yourself also, or are you just one of those run of the mill hypocrites that we come across here all the time? By the way, the idea of kidnapping has been dealt with extensively in the past ... perhaps you missed that also. Unfortunately it all arises out of people being unable to accept that God made them alive while they were dead, which is exactly what Scripture says, but that gets twisted and denied this way and that 6 ways to Sunday. And yes, called being kidnapped against one's will, and rape, ridiculously enough.

 

[Magenta]

^
Several comments have been made that some believe God just chose them to be saved and they had no say in the matter. They were born and one day God just said whether you want to be or not I am making you to be saved.

I read that literally nowhere in the Bible.

And since it is nowhere in the Bible and such a fallacy I chose to give it an equally absurd name.

You should treat the idea of free will the same way.

It would certainly solve a lot of problems.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You should treat the idea of free will the same way.

Free Will is opposite of God made me do it and I had no choice in the matter.

 

[Magenta]

Free Will is opposite of God made me do it and I had no choice in the matter.

Well I've never said that God made me believe, so I'm not sure who you are directing those comments at...

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well I've never said that God made me believe, so I'm not sure who you are directing those comments at...

To the Reformed who have made this claim multiple times.

 

[Magenta]

Why don't you just ask @FollowerofShiloh to change or better explain his statement? He also said something about kidnapping. That apparently didn't offend you as severely. Understandable.

I believe you're mistaken, but of course you may not ever admit that, as the idea of being kidnapped was introduced quite some time ago by another user, and I addressed and questioned it a number of times, but you may have missed that also because you obviously have missed quite a bit. Now will you call me being fixated on that also because I adressed that issue a number of times as well? There's just no pleasing some of you... and as Cameron has said, it's unproductive/not edifying discussing anything with you when you start off by poisoning the well and then falsely accuse me of all kinds of logical fallacies when you are blind to your own.

 

[Cameron143]

Hey Cameron, just checking, but can you think of any covenant that was instituted using rape as a promise... as we are now being told rape can be fairly compared to circumcision Biblically? Circumcision which was instituted as a sign of a covenant between Israel and God, and foreshadows the circumcision of the heart we all receive at some point being placed in Christ? @BillyBob perhaps you could weigh in on this also...

It was a horrible analogy, and should have been dropped. But when someone begins to defend a position, they will often stick with stuff to the end.
I understand that people believe they have the freedom of choice, but equating the sovereign actions of God with rape is more than a little over the top.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It's only the Sovereign actions of God whenever it's being used to fit one's doctrine because nowhere in the Bible is it listed anywhere else. So to make up the false claim they always toss in the terminology concerning sovereignty.

 

[studier]

Do you use that word to describe yourself also

Yes, I'm fixated on His Word in Christ in Spirit and have been as a mostly full-time endeavor since I came to believe and not to reject who Jesus is 40+ years ago. I started out later in life and had realized how lost human viewpoint and human "expertise" is. I have no interest in such human viewpoint thinking that does not align with the mind of Christ.

How about you, do you not have this interest? Erroneous interpretation of His Word is OK with you as long as your friends agree with you?

FWIW, it seems you've been doing this for awhile on this site. Please pardon my intrusion. But I see a lot of error and I'm fascinated how little response I get to posting details of Scripture in context even when some of that leaves open areas of discussion that could reasonably be respectfully discussed from different points of view.

With all this said, do you have Scripture you'd like to discuss or do you simply want to express some vitriol? Or are you also just hostile to the concept of actually looking at Scripture?

 

[Magenta]

It was a horrible analogy, and should have been dropped. But when someone begins to defend a position, they will often stick with stuff to the end.
I understand that people believe they have the freedom of choice, but equating the sovereign actions of God with rape is more than a little over the top.

Not just more than a little over the top but also quite ironic that those who accuse us of making God a tyrant when we affirm Him moving first and enabling individuals, are the ones who impugn His character by attributing such dastardly deeds to Him and trying to justify it by falsely comparing it to circumcision... Then we are told it's a logical fallacy to ask somebody else's opinion on something! It just get stranger and stranger around here...

 

[studier]

I believe you're mistaken, but of course you may not ever admit that, as the idea of being kidnapped was introduced quite some time ago by another user, and I addressed and questioned it a number of times, but you may have missed that also because you obviously have missed quite a bit.

Pardon me, but I have not read every one of your posts. They are hard to miss, though.

Any time you can show me a logical fallacy I'm using or any mistake in interpreting Scripture, I'd appreciate your identifying it for me. I'm prone to making mistakes. How about you?

 

[Magenta]

Pardon me, but I have not read every one of your posts. They are hard to miss, though.

Any time you can show me a logical fallacy I'm using or any mistake in interpreting Scripture, I'd appreciate your identifying it for me. I'm prone to making mistakes. How about you?

I did point out a logical fallacy to you... that of inappropriate comparison or faulty analogy and you made rationalizations for it as if it could be justified, and then doubled down. You poisoned the well pretty much right off the bat, essentially intimating that if I disagree with you I'm a Calvinist... After leading us to believe that you are of the opinion that Calvinism is not the only alternative to Armenianism. Your waffling this way and that, plus your double standards, are a bit much for me.

I'm so glad you got the point of the uselessness of your mentioning to me that I may have missed things.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The proper definition to God and His Sovereignty:
God is powerful and authoritative to the extent of being able to override all other powers and authorities.

When some apply this to salvation it becomes:
DOCTRINE OF COERCION

Which is:
Control/oppression that violates God's design for our relationship to Him.

 

[studier]

It was a horrible analogy, and should have been dropped. But when someone begins to defend a position, they will often stick with stuff to the end.
I understand that people believe they have the freedom of choice, but equating the sovereign actions of God with rape is more than a little over the top.

More mischaracterization.

What @FollowerofShiloh actually did is just the opposite of equating the sovereign actions of God because he disagrees that God does such sovereign actions others say He does. He used, as I said before, some aggressive and provocative language to compare to the way he sees the error of many of you in interpreting Scripture.

Other than mischaracterizing, my read of your freedom of choice critique seems fair; "horrible analogy" and "a little over the top" seems quite fair. I'm actually a bit surprised you didn't use the more aggressive "way over the top" saying. Nice restraint.

If we went into the Text and translated all of what's stated in contemporary, provocative language, we'd get banned from the site. Letting the Text speak as it does and bring it out so it can be understood in our time apart from the sensitivities of hearers would probably be beneficial for all of us.