Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
But it's God who makes relationships with helpless people. How can you characterize God as a forceful tyrant when he actually rescues helpless, powerless people? After all...that's exactly what he did in the Exodus.
God gave Satan everything and he still wasn't happy. You can't make someone be a slave and while they're being a slave they are happy about it.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
That does not answer the question, really. How or where do you see any force applied in waking up as a believer?
Did the person want to be a believer?
If they wake up as one it's against their will if they did not want to be one to begin with.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,144
29,455
113
Did the person want to be a believer?
If they wake up as one it's against their will if they did not want to be one to begin with.
Perhaps they wanted truth, and life. Can't have one without the other.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
They became saved, and from/by that, they believed - it came as a result, not as a cause They could not truly hear (have spiritual discernment of) the gospel until they were saved because they didn't have the Holy Spirit until they were saved/born again, and without the Holy Spirit, to hear spiritually is impossible.
They heard enough to bring a change that caused the Holy Spirit to fall upon them.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Scripture says you have become slaves to righteousness.
Jesus said people choose to enter the wide gate or the narrow gate.
They enter it because they ultimately want to go a certain direction.
No one made them.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
They heard enough to bring a change that caused the Holy Spirit to fall upon them.
Not possible. None of our actions will save us. That is why Jesus, and Jesus alone, wears the title of Saviour. Were it as
you suggest, then that would make us saviour, not Christ.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
So...by the same token, the passage doesn't say the Spirit came AFTER they heard, does it? How 'bout this 'novel" idea" They believed at the point of their new birth?
Hearing preceded repenting toward God; Repentance precedes listening; listening precedes believing; believing precedes justification; justification precedes the new heart; the new heart is where the Holy Spirit comes to dwell.

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Fellowship of the Believers

42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
So how then was it against their will as you have been railing on about?
You said perhaps they wanted...
I said then God gave them what they wanted.

But if a person wants the opposite...
God making them saved would be opposite of what they wanted.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Not possible. None of our actions will save us. That is why Jesus, and Jesus alone, wears the title of Saviour. Were it as
you suggest, then that would make us saviour, not Christ.
There are no actions happening. They heard which causes Faith. Faith causes belief. The Holy Spirit fell upon them when they believed. That is directly what the Bible teaches.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,144
29,455
113
You said perhaps they wanted...
I said then God gave them what they wanted.

But if a person wants the opposite...
God making them saved would be opposite of what they wanted.
People do seek truth. I will assume that as a universal. And it is a Biblical fact that people fear death. So...

My assumption is well grounded. Your assertion they were forced against their will is not. At. All.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
PaulThomson said:
Why does "nearly all possess hearing physically" imply that there must be a spiritual hearing being spoken of? And not everyone has it.

"Everyone who has boarding tickets to board flight NZ 3631, let them board now at gate 7'" Obviously, there are those who have boarding passes for flight NZ 3631 who do not board. Since nearly all people in the Gate 7 waiting area have boarding passes to flight NZ 3631, the announcer must be speaking of spiritual boarding passes.

No. she's talking about physical boarding passes, saying "If you have them, use them now." There are no spiritual boarding passes.

But the physically dead cannot hear, can they? Oh wait...there were people who Jesus resurrected? So...maybe the physically dead can hear just the way they did when they were alive?
No engagement with the argument, I see.

My religious instruction teacher at college used to refer to crass ignorance.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
People do seek truth. I will assume that as a universal. And it is a Biblical fact that people fear death. So...

My assumption is well grounded. Your assertion they were forced against their will is not. At. All.
Wiccans seek the truth through Nature.

Is God going to save them because they are seeking truth when they rejected God and chose nature?